Paradisedreams2

In otherwords since I'm not making myself clear (as always) Religion by Law is the "Serpents doing". Ya don't need the book or a religion, even a belief for that matter. The whole of the book revealed is to show the "blindness" of those who follow a God by walking under Law. THIS confirms a walk without religion.

The pain of "travail" of trying to bring forth any good fruit (or any kind of good thing in someone) is NOT found in Law.

You don't even have to read it to see the truth in that.

LianaLi

Pandering to parents, so they can rest safely in their delusions that I still believe, still worship god, still buy into all of it.

Personally, I thought the Iliad and the Odyssey much more interesting.


-Liana

James AD

There are others on these boards who are better than I am at citing particular verses, but I know it is a recurring theme in the Pauline letters. If you are studying the bible, you might as well read through all of them. There is no need to rush.

Unfortunately this "misconception" is rather central to the religion. To call it a misconception begs the issue. To say that you don't need god is nearly the same as there is no god (or at least not a personal one). My point is that it is something you are going to disagree with them on. It is definitely a point worth debating. In fact it is key point the defense of free thought. Christians often dodge the point altogether by saying, "You may be a good moral person, but you are not saved."

Everyone is independent of god. People have surrogate gods in the form of a holy book, a pastor, a sacred object, a surging emotion, or a mystical experience, but nothing as grand as is claimed. Religion (or it's supposed deity) is not the source of morality. It is not the standard bearer. It is not the guardian of morality.

In fact belief in the supernatural can adversely affect our value judgments. Should you help fund the new building at the local mega-church, or pay for your daughters braces? Should you give a tithe to the ministry, or save for your kid's college education? The pastor promises that you will be rewarded ten, even a hundred fold? Do you believe him? If your kid is sick, do you pray for a healing, or get a doctor? You look over your kids Science textbook. Is he getting a solid science education or is he being fed dangerous lies? Do you make a choice or do you hedge your bets and try to play it both ways? If you play it both ways, you will often have to spread your resources thin. How much do you have to spread around?

Tell me about harmonious relationships with theists. That would include at least half my relatives, friends and neighbors, including my wife. Fortunately, none of them are zealots. Few question what my beliefs are, let alone challenge them. When someone brings up an issue, I'm frank about what I think. I don't sermonize about being tolerant of other peoples views. If they disagree, they disagree. Life goes on. If someone wants me to agree with them, they have make their case. I'm the judge, not the other way around.

Amos

I am not sure if they agree or disagree with you. It seems that your post was ignored.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

James AD

Where I live, fruits are brought forth by trees. Oranges and avocados are grown in the area. Speaking metaphorically, my wife's womb has brought forth a couple of fine fruits. I'm glad Abraham stopped the practice of sacrificing the first born child. We got to keep our daughter. I felt bad about the goat though.

Paradisedreams2

I am not sure if they agree or disagree with you. It seems that your post was ignored

It seems like that

I suppose thinking, "were all alike" (be it athiests or believers) is not just found in the religious circles. Just as the Church lumps people together(as in "darkness" or "Light") to justify their positions and harsh treatment of others (even exclusion of them)I can't now say this belongs only to them. This IS disheartening to me because I do have a bone to pick on the basis of many of these type of complaints and now my bone has crumbled (Argh). I suppose its true whenever you point the finger at someone else you hate the finger points right back at cha unaware.

Damn I REALLY WANTED to be right... Back to the drawing board. I stand corrected.

Kim

P.S. Thank you and I understand

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

Amos

You have nothing to prove and as a freethinker never "stand corrected."

I'd say carry on.

James AD

I am sorry for my inadequate attention to your feelings and concerns. The postings I made were focused on LianaLi's concerns. Some of your remarks, I thought, were answered in those posts, if indirectly. My inattention to you posts was not intended as coldness toward your sincerely stated opinions. Your remarks are friendly and a pleasure to read. Thank you for challenging me to qualify my remarks.

For clarification, my remarks about the slanderous lies was directed at those who repeat them. If you do not echo them, the remark is not aimed at you. The lie I am referring to is the claim that non-believers do not have a moral foundation. Perhaps lie is too strong a word. Many Christians believe it is true; even some non-believers do. But it is still false, it is still harmful, and it is still done carelessly.

Think of how important moral character is. This is not just an academic discussion about ethical theory. This is not about that person over there, behind that tree. This is about that person in the mirror. About the heart beating in your chest. What are you made of?

Inner strength and confidence in is essential. You cannot let anyone take that away from you. But what about how others perceive you. Do you want your friends to trust you? Do you want your employer to feel that he/she can rely on you? Do you want to be able to shake hands on a business deal? Do you want to be involved in community activities were children will see you as a role model? Do you want to run for public office?

Character, both internal and perceived, is a valuable asset. Are you going to be happy about somebody saying you don't have it? What are we to do about it? Fortunately few people inquire about your beliefs. Most don't care. There is no need to make a fuss over something that is not brought up. However, the same lie is repeated, Sunday after Sunday, sometimes in shrieks, sometimes by subtle implication. Some ministers do not do it, but I fear they are in the minority. Too many do, and it's not right.

I do not lump Christians together. Some of the people I admire most are Christians. The woman I married, and devoted my life to, is Christian. On the other hand some of the most self centered jerks I have ever met are Christian. Look at where I am from. Do you think anyone born in the US would not be acquainted with more than a few Christians, from a variety of denominations and non-denominations, devout, Christmas-and-Easter, on a-personal-spiritual-journey, non-church-going, back-sliding, you name it?

The problem with Christians is they are too diverse. You have Christians running homeless shelters on the one extreme, and marching in the KKK on the other. Christianity morphs and diversifies with the people who carry it. After trying to peal back all the gooey layers of religious rituals, observances, non-essential beliefs, and contaminants, I have come to the conclusion that it is an empty vessel.

On the other hand, the non-believers in this forum, and that I have known, are much more alike. I think the reason for this is simple. We live in the material world. We live by what we see and understand. We do not dwell in a world we cannot see, and cannot comprehend. To us such a world, for which no words are adequate, looks an awful lot like a world that does not exist outside of a wishful imagination.

Paradisedreams2

James,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and no I'm not one who thinks that you need to be a christian to have morals. In fact I see better hearts outside the walls of the religious system. I share your same quirks about the whole thing. In fact this thought is very scriptural (though I think your cringing at the thought of me going on and on I'll refrain) Only wanted to point out that the very Law they live under is the very opposite of the "faith" they profess (most not)Yet even though this is presented in their own scriptures they fail to see it.

Gosh James I'm so beat I must go to bed! Its 2am but I was so glad you got back to me. I understand you perfectly and appreciate your reply, I'll probrobly come back tommorrow to "reread" my eyes are fried from the computer lol!

Kim

spin

James AD: " We got to keep our daughter. I felt bad about the goat though."

I think God prefers goats to daughters. Four legs good, two legs bad, put the back legs in the rubber boots and all that. Some people have no taste.... well, thinking about that, perhaps goats taste better than daughters. Don't remember tying either myself.

But on the subject of goats, on the day of atonement the high priest sacrificed one goat to God and sent another one out into the wilderness bearing everyone's wrongdoings to be pushed off a cliff and end up in the clutches of Azazel. (This latter goat is the famous "scapegoat".)