Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 01-02-2003, 09:48 AM

Personally, I think Paul invented "Christianity" as we know it (it should be called Paulianity).

Toto · 01-02-2003, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
Buy this book:

New Evidence that Demands A Verdict

Read this review:

"Evidence" That Demands a Refund

Vinnie · 01-02-2003, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Read this review:

"Evidence" That Demands a Refund

Teh Jury iz in!

Vinne

Toto · 01-02-2003, 11:19 AM

Vinnie - I don't want to drag this off topic, but while luvluv is reading Doherty -

When I went to Amazon to find the link for McDowell, I found someone had recommended as an alternative this book:

Finding Faith

One of the reviews notes:

Quote:

As a rather progressive postmodern recovering-Evangelical I found this book to be a breath of fresh-air. While this book does fall into the category of apologetics, it is most certainly not an "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" or "Many Infallible Proofs for Christianity" style book. . . ..

For me the bottom line is that this is one of the very few seeker-oriented Christian books that I wouldn't be embarrassed to give to a non-Christian friend.

Vinnie · 01-02-2003, 11:34 AM

The description, comments and excerpts make the book look good at first impression. But it seems rather basic from what I read of the excerpt of the first few pages. If I ever seee it anywhere I'll look through it and purchase it if I like what I see. I was looking for McLaren's credentials but the back is a little hard to read. I never heard of Brian D. McLaren

Thanks for the tip.

Vinnie

luvluv · 01-02-2003, 03:07 PM

Thanks folks I'm looking into it.

One more thing, how would you folks apply the principal of parsimony to this question?

It seems to me that by far the most parsimonious explanation is that someone resmbling the gospel account of Jesus existed, and any other hypothesis is going to rely on more assumptions than this one.

luvluv · 01-02-2003, 03:14 PM

I just read through Doherty's 12 main points and I gotta say I find them pretty unconvincing. Most of his case is circumstantial and based on many, many assumptions that he can't establish. I shall read on, however. What is the chance of picking up his book at, say, a Barnes and Noble?

Also, is it still the case that no scholarly rebuttal to this hypothesis has ever been made? Is there no chance of me grabbing two books that will give me a nice point/counterpoint scenario?

Viti · 01-02-2003, 03:19 PM

I liked this book and his theory made a lot of sense to me. He does not claim the person Jesus is 100% myth, but that Paul deified him

http://btobsearch.barnesandnoble.com...sbn=0760707871

Here's a blurb on it

Quote:

This book, by a Jewish scholar, theorizes that Jesus never intended to create a church/religion and if it wasn�t for Paul, we wouldn�t have a New Testament or Christianity on the face of the earth today. This book read in conjunction with books like Burton Mack's book gives one a much better idea (compared to what you hear in Sunday School) of what actually went on during the first couple of centuries AD. There are many interesting theories presented in this book that directly contradict what is commonly believed/taught in Christian churches today. Some are probably mere speculation, but many are backed up by more evidence than exists for the traditional beliefs. Some of these include: Paul not being a Pharisee (and the Pharisees not persecuting Jesus), Paul inventing the last supper (instead of Jesus), and Paul being in direct opposition to the apostles that may have actual known Jesus during his lifetime. After reading this book, and others like it, the New Testament begins to finally make sense. http://www.2think.org/hyam.shtml

Toto · 01-02-2003, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv
I just read through Doherty's 12 main points and I gotta say I find them pretty unconvincing. Most of his case is circumstantial and based on many, many assumptions that he can't establish. I shall read on, however. What is the chance of picking up his book at, say, a Barnes and Noble?

Also, is it still the case that no scholarly rebuttal to this hypothesis has ever been made? Is there no chance of me grabbing two books that will give me a nice point/counterpoint scenario?

I think you might have to order the book from Doherty's website, or perhaps Amazon.

Why should you be convinced before you read the detailed discussion? Doherty makes a case that the hyposthesis that there was no human Jesus at the beginning of Christianity fits the evidence better than any other hypothesis. (If you are expecting a "proof" that there was no Jesus, you will not find that.)

The only scholarly response to this has been Richard Carrier's essay on the secweb, Did Jesus Exist? (Note that Carrier did not start out as a mythicist)

If you want more detailed arguments, you should get access to the early archives on the Jesus Mysteries list on Yahoogroups.

luvluv · 01-02-2003, 04:25 PM

Thanks Toto but I meant a scholary refutation of Doherty's site. I can't get past the supposed conspiracy of silence. If I read Romans and Hebrews correctly Paul makes dozens of explicit references to Jesus. Doherty's assumptions seem to me to rely on an awfully large number of assumptions. Again, parsimony would seem to make this hypothesis totally impractical.

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01-02-2003, 09:48 AM	#11
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Personally, I think Paul invented "Christianity" as we know it (it should be called Paulianity).

01-02-2003, 11:34 AM	#15
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	The description, comments and excerpts make the book look good at first impression. But it seems rather basic from what I read of the excerpt of the first few pages. If I ever seee it anywhere I'll look through it and purchase it if I like what I see. I was looking for McLaren's credentials but the back is a little hard to read. I never heard of Brian D. McLaren Thanks for the tip. Vinnie

01-02-2003, 03:07 PM	#16
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Thanks folks I'm looking into it. One more thing, how would you folks apply the principal of parsimony to this question? It seems to me that by far the most parsimonious explanation is that someone resmbling the gospel account of Jesus existed, and any other hypothesis is going to rely on more assumptions than this one.

01-02-2003, 03:14 PM	#17
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I just read through Doherty's 12 main points and I gotta say I find them pretty unconvincing. Most of his case is circumstantial and based on many, many assumptions that he can't establish. I shall read on, however. What is the chance of picking up his book at, say, a Barnes and Noble? Also, is it still the case that no scholarly rebuttal to this hypothesis has ever been made? Is there no chance of me grabbing two books that will give me a nice point/counterpoint scenario?

01-02-2003, 04:25 PM	#20
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Thanks Toto but I meant a scholary refutation of Doherty's site. I can't get past the supposed conspiracy of silence. If I read Romans and Hebrews correctly Paul makes dozens of explicit references to Jesus. Doherty's assumptions seem to me to rely on an awfully large number of assumptions. Again, parsimony would seem to make this hypothesis totally impractical.

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