Goliath

Amie,

I would require absolutely nothing less than direct, logical proof of said god's existence. Evidence is irrelevant when it comes to supernatural claims.

The following axioms may be used (although you need not use all of them--2 and 3 are optional, you're probably gonna need 1.):

1. The Zermelo-Frankel Axiom of set theory

2. The Peano Postulates.

3. The Axiom of Choice.

4. The Continuum Hypothesis

5. Our senses model reality--that is, things that we percieve with our five senses are real.

I included number 5 so that you may use any scientific result that you'd like.

Good Luck!

Absolutely, completely, and totally incorrect. I need not know what a god is in order to not believe that a god exists. An infant does not believe that any gods exist, and it does not know what a god is. You need not know what a gurglafvlruk is to not believe that a gurglafvlruk exists.

Yes.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Infinity Lover

Goliath,

I don't think Amie was asking what she has to do, to make you a believer.

I agree with your latter point; you can't believe in what you're unfamilliar with. Though you would have to know what a "gurglafvlruk" is, to positively assert a gurglafvlruk (and not the slightly less obscure paweelygoink) doesn't exist. The thing with gods, is that you sooner or later become aware of the beliefs others have in them.

I think that will always remain the confusing element; to believers there is a god others, subsequently referred to as nonbelievers, don't believe in. (Now say that ten times real quick )

Selsaral

Amie, you may be wrong about the fundamental reasons for atheists being atheists. You stated that it is because of a lack of proof. This may be the case for some atheists, but for myself and others I know it is entirely different. It is the fact that human beings are clearly gullible, foolish, and thoroughly impressionable creatures with long histories of all kinds of religious beliefs that makes me skeptical. I mean check out Scientology or the Raelians, people fall for this madly! And they are 100% positive they are correct, and when you expose the absurdity of it, they put their hands over their years and yell 'nah nah nah'. I know several people who are scientologists and it has convinced me about how easy it is for even obviously absurd religions and beliefs to gain followers who become completely indoctrinated. After hearing so many people completely positive that the world would end in biblical apocalypse on january 1st 2000, it only reinforced my perception that human beings easily come to believe in verifiably absurd notions, and non-verifiably absurd notions even easier than that.

All of the kinds of proof that I hear christians speak of as 'evidence' of god I find wholly ridiculous. One poster used examples like 'the elevator door opening right before I pushed the button' or 'I was thinking about pidgeons and I then I saw some!'. Evans-Pritchard in his anthropological study of the Azande concluded that the fundamental premise of their witchcraft religion was coincidence. That human beings find coincidences and patterns too contrived to be mere happenstance, and this fuels a belief system.

Other common explanations for the origins of religious belief include things like dreams, visions, etc. Many religions throughout the world utilize drugs, fasting, meditation etc to achieve a religious event, and I similarly discard all such events as any kind of evidence. Schizophrenics, dreamers, drug users, people starving etc all experience strange sensations for purely mundane biological reasons.

Therefore no amount of coincidence, strange dreams, odd events are going to have any impact on me. Furthermore, no testimony or stories are going to have any impact on me. I've heard so many wacky stories, so many people 100% convinced of something that is patently absurd and verifiably false, that I discard pretty much all such evidence. I've known many schizophrenics who go through periods of relative health, and periods of trouble in which they have strange experiences etc, several of whom are my close friends. One of my friends is extremely stable part of the time, who is clever and wise, and sometimes he's convinced he's a vampire (during his bad periods, or he misses his medication). Someone else's testimony means essentially nothing to me after hearing a million ridiculous stories throughout my life. I mean I was primed on Santa and the Easter Bunny...and right when I'm accepting them as fact I'm told they are just a fun myth for children. I'm extremely accustomed to being told absurd things.

I would need to experience something myself, with people I trust also experiencing it with whom I can compare and contrast events with. I'd need to see, hear, or feel something truely stupendous, with trustworthy people having the same occurance. If a huge flood covered the entire planet in a few weeks, I'd think something extremely suspicious were happening. Considering that the flood is a major event in several old religions, I'd be seriously considering this as a possibility. Similarly, if all the first-born children in the USA mysteriously died, I'd be suspicious of a biblical type event. Something obviously impossible would have to happen, not some people's corpses seeming to decay slowly, or interpreting the virgin mary's face in the side of a taco, etc.

Shadowy Man

Well put, Selsaral.

:notworthy

Amie

I believe because I have faith in God

I was raised catholic however I am not afraid to give up my beliefs if they did not feel right to me. I do question some aspects about my faith and I do have many unanswered questions but such is life. If I felt there was not a God I would not be "afraid" to stop believing. I am sure I would go through some difficulties because i imagine it may be difficult to give up a beleif when that belief is all one has ever known.
My belief does satisfy an emotional need somehow however I believe in God because it feels right for me.

Shadowy Man

Uh... ok. I still don't really know what this means. Don't you have to believe in a god first before you can have faith in it?

Amie

hallo schonoheid (mar I am trying here)

I'll give you a subjective experience and take you to the promised land
no seriously I understand what you are saying here and I do think that is a reason I am no biblical literalist.

yes hon I understand what you are saying. I do think many things some believers attribute to God I would attribute to something else. There are times when some people will say "he was saved only by the hand of God" where I can say "I think it was the fact he was going to die and fight or flight kicked in and his adrenaline saved him" however I am sure there may be things I believe are divine and seebs may come in and say "no amie I don't think it was divine" Its just how one perceives things...

what makes you think so sweetheart?

I do not think how I live my life would change whatsoever if I didn't believe in God.

I am there in 4 months hon, that is a given.

Amie

I think its the other way around. Have faith to believe, not believe to have faith.

braces_for_impact

See that's where I'm different. If I have faith or belief in something because it 'feels right for me, but I suspect it's not true, it then would not feel right for me. I cannot force myself to believe in something when there is no evidence to confirm it, and in some cases, evidence running contrary to the belief. Certainly not something that would hold any importance to my life or help me define myself as a person.

I see nothing noble about faith. Believing because it 'feels right' to me seems not only innacurate, but like going through life with blinders on, simply because you wish things were a certain way and cannot face the real facts of life. It would mean being dishonest with myself. Once you can fool yourself easily, it becomes much easier to be dishonest with others - and even justify it. I'm not implying that all believers are being dishonest with themselves, but for me I simply cannot take faith. I require something more concrete, something with more substance so that I may be comfortable with myself.

Amie

inaccurate for you perhaps. I Personally don't really care what people believe in, to each his own. If someone has a belief in something and I do not as long as they are not hurting other people who am I to tell them they have "blinders" on. Unfortunately so many people think their way is the correct way.