Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SteveD · 06-18-2002, 01:33 PM

Diana,
Isn't it interesting how so many people can't see what is so obvious. Even though it is laid out right in front of them.

Keep up the good work. This is fun to read.

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Steve

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: SteveD ]</p>

diana · 06-18-2002, 02:12 PM

Ryanfire and Helen:

I've been giving more thought to the Problem of Pain.

Why do some people die such a horrible death such as cancer? Should you really go through that much torture?

No one thing can exist without its opposite. Without death, there would be no life. Without pain, there would be no pleasure. The greater the pain there is possible, the greater its compliment can be, as well. The intensity of possible pain in this world therefore gives us some indication of the possible pleasure in The Next. Indeed--our ability to feel intense pain is what makes any appreciation of intense pleasure even possible.

Ryanfire, I'm troubled that you question God's plan so blatantly. You ask why He, in His infinite wisdom and understanding, would allow something. Don't you see that it is your inability to understand these greater things that makes Him worthy of your worship? If you understood everything in His plan, you would be His equal--and one does not worship one's equal. Therefore, it is imperative that His greater design confuse you on some levels, as this proves His ultimate superiority to us.

Pain also reminds us that we are mortal, that we are weak, that our bodies are but vessels for our souls to serve Him. Pain tests our faith in Him and strengthens it, like iron that is heated and folded thousands of times to strengthen a blade. The Pain we feel is always to His glory. O, but that I had cancer, that I might better serve Him.

A Pain-wracked Vessel to God's Greater Glory,

d

HelenM · 06-18-2002, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by diana:

No one thing can exist without its opposite. Without death, there would be no life. Without pain, there would be no pleasure. The greater the pain there is possible, the greater its compliment can be, as well. The intensity of possible pain in this world therefore gives us some indication of the possible pleasure in The Next. Indeed--our ability to feel intense pain is what makes any appreciation of intense pleasure even possible.

Diana it sounds like you've been doing some commendable thinking on the issue of the Problem of Pain.

Have you perhaps been reading C.S. Lewis?

O, but that I had cancer, that I might better serve Him.

I'm sure God looks at your heart, diana and this truly seems to be an admirable sentiment - however, I hope you are not thinking that something other than His plan for you would be better than your current state of health!

I would imagine He looked down on you after you hurt your finger and graciously noted down that you might not be an ideal candidate for showing how joyously you suffer...His ways are higher than yours as you know...

Anyway, if Jesus wished not to go through with the suffering of the cross, are you better than Jesus that you'd ask to suffer?

So, you need to be careful in your zeal...that you don't wish beyond what is His will!

love
Helen

diana · 06-18-2002, 05:21 PM

Anyway, if Jesus wished not to go through with the suffering of the cross, are you better than Jesus that you'd ask to suffer?

You're right, Helen. Presumptious of me.

O, that I could lead a life devoid of pain, filled with ease and joy, to better serve Him.

d

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

Fiach · 06-18-2002, 05:48 PM

Death is one argument against intelligent design.

Someone mentioned the human eye as a challenge. The eye is indeed complex but there are flaws. First, the retinal arteries and viens are in front of the light sensitive cells of the retina. That means that bleeding will obscure light from hitting the retina. Secondly, the optic nerve enters the eye with myelinated nerve fibres that creates a blind spot in each eye. That means if you lose vision in one eye you will have a scotoma or loss of vision in a roughly oval shape in the remaining eye. As long as both eyes are intact the blind spots are cancelled out.

Next, we have a spinal column with vertebra and intrvertebral discs which work well in quadripeds. The discs are excellent for lateral movement in a lizard or alligator. But in an upright biped, the upper body weight gradually squashes the soft disc material herniating it out of the binding ligaments. As a result back pain is one of the commmonest ailments, major cause of on the job disability, and significant cause of paraplegia in injuries with spinal cord compression.

Humans have a glottis and larynx high enough that food easily enters the airway, and one chokes. Choking results in several hundred deaths per year and possibly higher figures if nocturnal deaths were properly autopsied.

The human foot is poorly designed. The entire weight is suspended on the arch ligaments. Collapse (flat feet) is inevitable. It so happens that the medial and lateral plantar nerves travel medially from the ankle under the arch bones to the "ball" of the foot. The falling arch puts stretch on these nerves resulting in a painful syndrome of Tarsal Tunnel syndrome with burning neuropathic pain in addition to the arthritic pain of the stretched ligaments (plantar fasciitis.)

If humans are designed, why does the embryo temporarily have gill slits and a tail? Some babies are born with tails (no big deal). But others have a residual of the gill slit, called a Branchial Cleft Cyst that can cause considerable problems in the neck requiring surgical correction.

Some human babies are born with a tendency to calcify the skin forming what is essentially the exoskeleton of an arthropod. It seems that we still carry the now "dormant" gene code for an exoskeleton since our common ancestor of the Cambrian Period. Occasionally that gene is activated producing a fatal illness of calcification of the skin of a child.

So, intelligent design is refuted by all of the above. It there is design, then the designer is sloppy. God would have flunked Engineering 101.

Fiach

Philosoft · 06-18-2002, 06:22 PM

Nice opening post, Fiach. And top of the morning to you!

HelenM · 06-18-2002, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana:
<strong>Anyway, if Jesus wished not to go through with the suffering of the cross, are you better than Jesus that you'd ask to suffer?

You're right, Helen. Presumptious of me.

O, that I could lead a life devoid of pain, filled with ease and joy, to better serve Him.

d

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</strong>

Ah, diana, you are wonderfully responsive - but, alas - you're still wishing for other than the life He has given you!

How can you be so ungrateful?

May I very humbly suggest you pray harder to be like Paul. Read Philippians 4 and then pray for the peace that passeth all understanding and pray you'll learn the secret Paul learned that made him content in all circumstances.

I.e. no more swearing over battery mishaps etc

Wouldn't that make you feel more godly? Hmm?

love
Helen

Talulah · 06-19-2002, 05:39 AM

Ah, diana, you are wonderfully responsive - but, alas - you're still wishing for other than the life He has given you! How can you be so ungrateful?

May I very humbly suggest you pray harder to be like Paul.

But Helen...wouldn't that still be praying for other than the life He has given me? What does one pray for, if not other than the life one was given in some form? You see the problem?

Any way you go, you're still futzing with the Divine Plan.

I.e. no more swearing over battery mishaps etc

Spoken like a woman with intact fingers.

Wouldn't that make you feel more godly? Hmm?

I'd feel more godly if I could blink my finger whole again.

Meanwhile, I'm

Trippin' on Painkillers for Him,

d

(btw, Fiach...nice post. Welcome!)

HelenM · 06-19-2002, 06:22 AM

Talulah???

Well, my dear Talulah, I think you also need to pray harder about having smart-alecky retorts. That doesn't go across well in the Christian community, you know...

But, being humble, I'm not too proud to admit you have a good point.

How about this? We pray that God's will be done in our lives; we know He wants us to be 'conformed to the image of His Son; and who could be more like His Son than the great Apostle Paul...so, I think we're on safe ground praying for Him to do that in us. As long as we pray it with eager expectation and faith rather than out of a discontentment with where He has us, today.

As for your finger, well, perhaps I should not have spoken of what I do not know. Maybe you can pray that I will have more compassion towards those who are suffering...which would make me more like Jesus, of course...

love
Helen

diana · 06-20-2002, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by HelenSL:
Talulah???

Oh shit.

d

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06-18-2002, 01:33 PM	#41
SteveD Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 118	Diana, Isn't it interesting how so many people can't see what is so obvious. Even though it is laid out right in front of them. Keep up the good work. This is fun to read. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> Steve [ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: SteveD ]</p>

06-18-2002, 02:12 PM	#42
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Ryanfire and Helen: I've been giving more thought to the Problem of Pain. Why do some people die such a horrible death such as cancer? Should you really go through that much torture? No one thing can exist without its opposite. Without death, there would be no life. Without pain, there would be no pleasure. The greater the pain there is possible, the greater its compliment can be, as well. The intensity of possible pain in this world therefore gives us some indication of the possible pleasure in The Next. Indeed--our ability to feel intense pain is what makes any appreciation of intense pleasure even possible. Ryanfire, I'm troubled that you question God's plan so blatantly. You ask why He, in His infinite wisdom and understanding, would allow something. Don't you see that it is your inability to understand these greater things that makes Him worthy of your worship? If you understood everything in His plan, you would be His equal--and one does not worship one's equal. Therefore, it is imperative that His greater design confuse you on some levels, as this proves His ultimate superiority to us. Pain also reminds us that we are mortal, that we are weak, that our bodies are but vessels for our souls to serve Him. Pain tests our faith in Him and strengthens it, like iron that is heated and folded thousands of times to strengthen a blade. The Pain we feel is always to His glory. O, but that I had cancer, that I might better serve Him. A Pain-wracked Vessel to God's Greater Glory, d

06-18-2002, 02:53 PM	#43
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Originally posted by diana: No one thing can exist without its opposite. Without death, there would be no life. Without pain, there would be no pleasure. The greater the pain there is possible, the greater its compliment can be, as well. The intensity of possible pain in this world therefore gives us some indication of the possible pleasure in The Next. Indeed--our ability to feel intense pain is what makes any appreciation of intense pleasure even possible. Diana it sounds like you've been doing some commendable thinking on the issue of the Problem of Pain. Have you perhaps been reading C.S. Lewis? O, but that I had cancer, that I might better serve Him. I'm sure God looks at your heart, diana and this truly seems to be an admirable sentiment - however, I hope you are not thinking that something other than His plan for you would be better than your current state of health! I would imagine He looked down on you after you hurt your finger and graciously noted down that you might not be an ideal candidate for showing how joyously you suffer...His ways are higher than yours as you know... Anyway, if Jesus wished not to go through with the suffering of the cross, are you better than Jesus that you'd ask to suffer? So, you need to be careful in your zeal...that you don't wish beyond what is His will! love Helen

06-18-2002, 05:21 PM	#44
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Anyway, if Jesus wished not to go through with the suffering of the cross, are you better than Jesus that you'd ask to suffer? You're right, Helen. Presumptious of me. O, that I could lead a life devoid of pain, filled with ease and joy, to better serve Him. d [ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

06-18-2002, 05:48 PM	#45
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	Death is one argument against intelligent design. Someone mentioned the human eye as a challenge. The eye is indeed complex but there are flaws. First, the retinal arteries and viens are in front of the light sensitive cells of the retina. That means that bleeding will obscure light from hitting the retina. Secondly, the optic nerve enters the eye with myelinated nerve fibres that creates a blind spot in each eye. That means if you lose vision in one eye you will have a scotoma or loss of vision in a roughly oval shape in the remaining eye. As long as both eyes are intact the blind spots are cancelled out. Next, we have a spinal column with vertebra and intrvertebral discs which work well in quadripeds. The discs are excellent for lateral movement in a lizard or alligator. But in an upright biped, the upper body weight gradually squashes the soft disc material herniating it out of the binding ligaments. As a result back pain is one of the commmonest ailments, major cause of on the job disability, and significant cause of paraplegia in injuries with spinal cord compression. Humans have a glottis and larynx high enough that food easily enters the airway, and one chokes. Choking results in several hundred deaths per year and possibly higher figures if nocturnal deaths were properly autopsied. The human foot is poorly designed. The entire weight is suspended on the arch ligaments. Collapse (flat feet) is inevitable. It so happens that the medial and lateral plantar nerves travel medially from the ankle under the arch bones to the "ball" of the foot. The falling arch puts stretch on these nerves resulting in a painful syndrome of Tarsal Tunnel syndrome with burning neuropathic pain in addition to the arthritic pain of the stretched ligaments (plantar fasciitis.) If humans are designed, why does the embryo temporarily have gill slits and a tail? Some babies are born with tails (no big deal). But others have a residual of the gill slit, called a Branchial Cleft Cyst that can cause considerable problems in the neck requiring surgical correction. Some human babies are born with a tendency to calcify the skin forming what is essentially the exoskeleton of an arthropod. It seems that we still carry the now "dormant" gene code for an exoskeleton since our common ancestor of the Cambrian Period. Occasionally that gene is activated producing a fatal illness of calcification of the skin of a child. So, intelligent design is refuted by all of the above. It there is design, then the designer is sloppy. God would have flunked Engineering 101. Fiach

06-18-2002, 06:22 PM	#46
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Nice opening post, Fiach. And top of the morning to you!

06-19-2002, 05:39 AM	#48
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	Ah, diana, you are wonderfully responsive - but, alas - you're still wishing for other than the life He has given you! How can you be so ungrateful? May I very humbly suggest you pray harder to be like Paul. But Helen...wouldn't that still be praying for other than the life He has given me? What does one pray for, if not other than the life one was given in some form? You see the problem? Any way you go, you're still futzing with the Divine Plan. I.e. no more swearing over battery mishaps etc Spoken like a woman with intact fingers. Wouldn't that make you feel more godly? Hmm? I'd feel more godly if I could blink my finger whole again. Meanwhile, I'm Trippin' on Painkillers for Him, d (btw, Fiach...nice post. Welcome!)

06-19-2002, 06:22 AM	#49
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Talulah??? Well, my dear Talulah, I think you also need to pray harder about having smart-alecky retorts. That doesn't go across well in the Christian community, you know... But, being humble, I'm not too proud to admit you have a good point. How about this? We pray that God's will be done in our lives; we know He wants us to be 'conformed to the image of His Son; and who could be more like His Son than the great Apostle Paul...so, I think we're on safe ground praying for Him to do that in us. As long as we pray it with eager expectation and faith rather than out of a discontentment with where He has us, today. As for your finger, well, perhaps I should not have spoken of what I do not know. Maybe you can pray that I will have more compassion towards those who are suffering...which would make me more like Jesus, of course... love Helen

06-20-2002, 07:36 AM	#50
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Originally posted by HelenSL: Talulah??? Oh shit. d

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