Freethought & Rationalism Archive

keitht · 05-01-2003, 11:24 AM

Quote:

"Whatever else the [Constitution's] establishment clause may prohibit, this court's precedents make clear that it does not forbid the government from officially acknowledging the religious heritage, foundation and character of this nation," Solicitor General Theodore Olson

I notice a destinct attitude about the Constitution that I think goes contrary to it's basic intent. The Constitution is supposed to specifically outline the powers of our government and the government only has the specific powers stated. The Constitution is not meant to state the powers that government is prohibited from having. The amendments to the Constitution (specifically, the Bill of Rights) spcifically prohibit the government's powers over certain rights, but that doesn't mean that the government automatically has power over the items not specifically prohibited. I would suggest that the Solicitor General read the 9th and 10th amendments, since he doesn't seem to understand what the Constitution is really about (precedents or not). The Constitution doesn't prohibit the government from establishing rules on underwear, but I don't think that means the government can regulate it (although I wouldn't be surprised if somebody tried).

Keith

keitht · 05-01-2003, 11:26 AM

Quote:

They don't sing songs when I go to the theater or before a movie starts...

You've obviously never attended a movie on a military base. They do it there.

Keith

Oresta · 05-01-2003, 01:05 PM

Our religious heritage has been recognized and celebrated for hundreds of years," in the national motto "In God We Trust," the national anthem and elsewhere, Attorney General John Ashcroft said after the appeal was filed Wednesday.

"Hundreds of Years?" The motto first was used on coins during the Civil War, a mere 140 years ago; and the line from Fransis Scott Key's wretched doggerel was written during the War of 1812. The phrase didn't even become a national motto until quite recently.
This AG not only lacks a basic understanding of the Constitution, he doesn't even know his history, neither early nor late.

openeyes · 05-01-2003, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake
After the whole 9/11 thing, many baseball teams started playing GBA during the 7th inning stretch. My favorite team, the New York Yankees, kept on playing it throughout the end of the season. It was played, "In rememberance of the tragic events of September 11th...," but is now played, "To honor our men and women serving overseas ...," first in Afghanistan, and more recently in Iraq. I'm just wondering how much longer they'll keep finding excuses to play it. Whatever happened to, "Take me out to the ballgame?" W said we needed to get back to living our lives, well part of that was hearing TMOTTBG during the 7th inning stretch! Grrr!

At the Metrodome, where the Twins play, after "Take me out to the ballgame" they played Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA" last year. I always made a point to sit down and chat with my neighbor or look bored or something.

I haven't been to any games so far this year, so I don't know what they're doing. Something, I afraid, besides just TMOTTBG.

Seeker630 · 05-02-2003, 08:48 AM

I must have lucked out for most of my life so far. I only had to say the pledge in grade school because it was Catholic and we were forced to say it. The words "under god" were added when I was in the 1st or second grade. When I got to public high school , it stopped. I never once had to say it there. Of course there was no school prayer or moment of silence either. No bible clubs or anything remotely religious in my entire 4 years there.

As far as sporting events go--There was no sports program in the Catholic school--nothing but a little PT. So by the time I was a teenager I just had no interest in it and don't to this day. I've never been to any kind of professional or collegiate sports event of any kind, so I've never gone through the pledge or anthem thing on that basis. I never went to any kind of a game in high school either, even though they had baseball, basketball, football, and track. So I never said the pledge there either. When my kids were younger they played AYSO soccer for a while, and it never came up there either. A couple of them played volleyball in high school and it never happened there either. No pledge--no anthem.

In fact, I am 53 now and I can't remember the last time I was anywhere that anyone said the pledge or sang the anthem--Cub Scouts probably.

Godless Dave · 05-02-2003, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by openeyes
At the Metrodome, where the Twins play, after "Take me out to the ballgame" they played Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA" last year. I always made a point to sit down and chat with my neighbor or look bored or something.

I haven't been to any games so far this year, so I don't know what they're doing. Something, I afraid, besides just TMOTTBG.

Well at this point divine intervention is the only hope the Twins have....

Jewel · 05-02-2003, 10:02 AM

I just read a Reuters article about Newdow's daughter reciting the pledge:

Quote:

"She says the pledge, oh yes," David Gordon, superintendent for the Elk Grove school district, said about the daughter. "Her mother is on record as supporting the pledge."

As if that should matter.

Also from Gordon:

Quote:

"The words 'under God' simply reflect that this is a country founded around worship of God," he said. "That doesn't mean that you have to believe in God or I have to believe in God, that's just a historical fact."

Another person in charge of education who doesn't know (or care about) basic history.

Why learn history when you can just make it up!

Shake · 05-02-2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by keitht
You've obviously never attended a movie on a military base. They do it there.

Keith

Yeah, if you could wait 'til the first run of a film was about done, a $2 military theater showing was well worth it. Still, it always felt weird when I went to an off-base theater ... kept waiting for the anthem, put down my popcorn as the lights went down. 'Course we had our son less than a year before we left the military ... we don't get out to movies much at all anymore.

05-02-2003, 05:22 PM

Quote:

I notice a destinct attitude about the Constitution that I think goes contrary to it's basic intent. The Constitution is supposed to specifically outline the powers of our government and the government only has the specific powers stated. The Constitution is not meant to state the powers that government is prohibited from having. The amendments to the Constitution (specifically, the Bill of Rights) spcifically prohibit the government's powers over certain rights, but that doesn't mean that the government automatically has power over the items not specifically prohibited. I would suggest that the Solicitor General read the 9th and 10th amendments, since he doesn't seem to understand what the Constitution is really about (precedents or not). The Constitution doesn't prohibit the government from establishing rules on underwear, but I don't think that means the government can regulate it (although I wouldn't be surprised if somebody tried).

And I suppose you can provide an historical basis for this? Truth is, even Jefferson, the main proponent of that view overstreched the powers the constitution gave him(Louisiana Purcahse). Sorry, the historical basis for this argument is just not there.

PalestineChic19 · 05-02-2003, 08:09 PM

honestly, even in school, they can't FORCE kids to say the pledge. I never did. Just threaten to sue the school on the basis of religious discrimination. works every time.

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05-01-2003, 01:05 PM	#13
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	Our religious heritage has been recognized and celebrated for hundreds of years," in the national motto "In God We Trust," the national anthem and elsewhere, Attorney General John Ashcroft said after the appeal was filed Wednesday. "Hundreds of Years?" The motto first was used on coins during the Civil War, a mere 140 years ago; and the line from Fransis Scott Key's wretched doggerel was written during the War of 1812. The phrase didn't even become a national motto until quite recently. This AG not only lacks a basic understanding of the Constitution, he doesn't even know his history, neither early nor late.

05-02-2003, 08:48 AM	#15
Seeker630 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: North America Posts: 1,624	I must have lucked out for most of my life so far. I only had to say the pledge in grade school because it was Catholic and we were forced to say it. The words "under god" were added when I was in the 1st or second grade. When I got to public high school , it stopped. I never once had to say it there. Of course there was no school prayer or moment of silence either. No bible clubs or anything remotely religious in my entire 4 years there. As far as sporting events go--There was no sports program in the Catholic school--nothing but a little PT. So by the time I was a teenager I just had no interest in it and don't to this day. I've never been to any kind of professional or collegiate sports event of any kind, so I've never gone through the pledge or anthem thing on that basis. I never went to any kind of a game in high school either, even though they had baseball, basketball, football, and track. So I never said the pledge there either. When my kids were younger they played AYSO soccer for a while, and it never came up there either. A couple of them played volleyball in high school and it never happened there either. No pledge--no anthem. In fact, I am 53 now and I can't remember the last time I was anywhere that anyone said the pledge or sang the anthem--Cub Scouts probably.

05-02-2003, 08:09 PM	#20
PalestineChic19 Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 153	honestly, even in school, they can't FORCE kids to say the pledge. I never did. Just threaten to sue the school on the basis of religious discrimination. works every time.

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