Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jorge · 07-17-2003, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CX
Greetings Jorge,

Welcome to II and B,C&H. Typically this forum is for the intellectual discussion of ideas and issues related to biblical criticism and/or history. As such the onus on the OP is to present a question or issue for discussion. At present your OP seems more of a diatribe based on a particular confessional stance. If you would be so kind, could you clarify what it is you wish to discuss and perhaps tone down your rhetoric?

Thanks,

CX - Moderator B,C&H

Thanks for the welcome.

Sure, I can comply. The essence of my message is that many people offer up what they consider to be Bible "contradictions/errors" as evidence of its unworthiness without actually knowing what they are talking about.

This is not meant as an insult but rather as pointing to the fact that this is a vast subject that has consumed many lifetimes of study. I am merely suggesting that it would be much wiser to not play the part of the fool and, in ignorance, condemn the Bible as "unworthy".

That's it.

Jorge

Yellum Notnef · 07-17-2003, 12:47 PM

Radorth?

Jorge · 07-17-2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RevDahlia
Jorge, you aren't going to get ANY discussion under the terms YOU defined. You have alleged that non-Christians are incapable of comprehending the Bible, and here you are inviting "good philosophical discussions", on the Bible, with a bunch of non-Christians. Excuse me?

[edited to fix tortured grammar]

Oh well, I guess no "good philosophical discussion" from you either, eh, RevDahlia?

Uh, BTW, I don't do ad hominem. I usually just let the 'pots and pans' do their thing.

Jorge

Rhaedas · 07-17-2003, 12:53 PM

Going to go past the possible valid warning of trolldom:

The two actual points I find in the OP:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jorge

So, you wouldn't really be expecting to understand this message - completely and without errors in perception/comprehension on your part - with your relatively feeble mind, would you?

So what's the point of the bible then, if it is not a message to the more inferior creation of god? Why deliver a message, but make it unknowable?

Quote:

I'm not even close to what one would consider a scholar in this field and I'm aware of over 31,000 (!!) "discrepancies". BTW, this knowledge (and the subsequent studies) has served to strengthen my faith, not weaken it.

Just wondering, why?

It's been said by many that reading the bible was the biggest influence in steering them away from christianity/theism. Seems an ineffective tool for passing along a message. Does god only want certain types of people, those who can "see through" the garbage, to follow him?

Amaranth · 07-17-2003, 12:58 PM

No worries, Rhaedas - I'm biting as well...

*sigh*

Quote:

Uh, BTW, I don't do ad hominem.

False:

Quote:

And if you ever did read it, with what kind of 'heart condition' did you read it? What was your spiritual and intellectual 'attitude'?

'It only takes one reading and the attitude has nothing to do with it' - is this what you're thinking? If so, you are completely wrong.

Blatantly poisoning the well.

Cretinist · 07-17-2003, 01:01 PM

Oh looky, another "Fundamentalist, YEC, Born-Again Christian" come here to waste our time trying to defend the indefensible. And arrogant as hell to boot. How lovely.

Our local experts here, like CX, generally don't waste too much time discussing inerrancy with the likes of you, Jorge. Frankly, it isn't worth their time to discuss such nonsense. The errors and contradictions are obviously there, such as in the case of Genesis being demonstrably false regarding the origins of man, and say, in the case of the contradictions between the genealogies of Matthew and Luke.

Please, don't waste the time of the best and brightest in BC&H on your pathetic drivel. They have much more interesting things to discuss than the fanciful "what-if" scenarios inerrantists attempt to use to reconcile contradictions and errors.

RevDahlia · 07-17-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jorge
Oh well, I guess no "good philosophical discussion" from you either, eh, RevDahlia?

Uh, BTW, I don't do ad hominem. I usually just let the 'pots and pans' do their thing.

Jorge

I have read the Bible, but I'm not capable of carrying on a BC debate. I just take issue with your flagrant well-poisoning and condescension.

ex-xian · 07-17-2003, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JorgeTell me, exactly how many years of serious, dedicated study do you have under your belt on the subject of Bible "discrepancies and errors"? Ten years? Twenty? Fifty? How many times have you read the Bible cover-to-cover? Ten? Twenty? Fifty?

What's that you say? None? One?

Not quite. I was a fundamentalist xian for about 18 years. During that time I read the Bible many, many times. I've read most of the higher regarded apologetic works, including the old ones (Aquinas, etc). Also, I've attended bible college, and, as such, scholarly studied the bible, and intensively studied certain parts.

Quote:

MORE
Uh, BTW, I don't do ad hominem. I usually just let the 'pots and pans' do their thing.

Check your entire OP.

Quote:

MORE
I could cite you scores of names of Bible scholars that have studied this topic for a major portion of their lives. Do you think that you know something on this subject that, combined, they don't? If so, pray tell what that would be.

And I could cite scores who did the same thing and totally disagree with your conclusions. Illegitimate arguments from authority don't go very far here.

Quote:

MORE
The 'jerk' characterization is duly noted. Could we now see some of that "good philosophical discussion"?

As has already been pointed out to you, the onus is upon the OPer to make a point for discussion. All you've done is made inflammatory comments. If you really want to discuss biblical inerrancy, then make a point. Bring up a controversial passage...cite a scholars paper...something. Don't just show up, make an OP, then sit back in your righteous indignation that the evil atheists are just stupid and don't know what they're talking about.

ex-xian · 07-17-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
Do this; go to BC&H forum, and name one or more theologians who you find to be wise. You will then be answered by people who have read your Biblical scholar, and have his (most such are male) errors spelled out in simple terms for you.

Originally posted by Jorge
Point taken... it's off to the BC&H I go.

From OP
This post is directed at any person here that feels that this subject (Bible "discrepancies and errors") is a 'Waterloo' for Christianity. (BTW, I was directed to this forum by the Moderator).

If you had actually taken Jobar's advice, you would have gotten the "good philosophical discussion" that you say you wish to have.

Haran · 07-17-2003, 02:26 PM

Jorge,

I think many come to this particular forum to get sincere answers to their questions about the Bible and perceived discrepancies.

There are some, maybe even several, who only want to bash the Bible and will take any old kind of information to do so, but there are also several who just want to discover the truth.

Your post is very off-putting and will only serve to anger the very people you might be trying to convert. Angry people won't listen to you and will many times do whatever they feel is necessary (including bending the truth) to make you look wrong. If you present your case with emotion (rather than logic), you will get emotion (rather than logic) back.

If you want to save souls, this is not the way to do it. If you just want to condemn atheists, then shame on you, this is not a good way to win others to Christ.

As others have said, there are plenty of people here who have been studying the Bible in quite a bit more depth than you probably have. If you don't believe me, then ask some more meaningful, less confrontational questions. You might be surprised what you yourself can learn.

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07-17-2003, 12:47 PM	#12
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	Radorth?

07-17-2003, 01:01 PM	#16
Cretinist Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hell Posts: 399	Oh looky, another "Fundamentalist, YEC, Born-Again Christian" come here to waste our time trying to defend the indefensible. And arrogant as hell to boot. How lovely. Our local experts here, like CX, generally don't waste too much time discussing inerrancy with the likes of you, Jorge. Frankly, it isn't worth their time to discuss such nonsense. The errors and contradictions are obviously there, such as in the case of Genesis being demonstrably false regarding the origins of man, and say, in the case of the contradictions between the genealogies of Matthew and Luke. Please, don't waste the time of the best and brightest in BC&H on your pathetic drivel. They have much more interesting things to discuss than the fanciful "what-if" scenarios inerrantists attempt to use to reconcile contradictions and errors.

07-17-2003, 02:26 PM	#20
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Jorge, I think many come to this particular forum to get sincere answers to their questions about the Bible and perceived discrepancies. There are some, maybe even several, who only want to bash the Bible and will take any old kind of information to do so, but there are also several who just want to discover the truth. Your post is very off-putting and will only serve to anger the very people you might be trying to convert. Angry people won't listen to you and will many times do whatever they feel is necessary (including bending the truth) to make you look wrong. If you present your case with emotion (rather than logic), you will get emotion (rather than logic) back. If you want to save souls, this is not the way to do it. If you just want to condemn atheists, then shame on you, this is not a good way to win others to Christ. As others have said, there are plenty of people here who have been studying the Bible in quite a bit more depth than you probably have. If you don't believe me, then ask some more meaningful, less confrontational questions. You might be surprised what you yourself can learn.

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