Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dangin · 10-17-2002, 05:51 AM

Yes, we don't often think of the anomalies among us, but they prove to be the most interesting. They also turn conventional wisdom on it's ear. When you fully understand that morality is completely taught, and is in no way "natural", it really puts the kibosh to humanities "special" place among gog's creatures.

Our big brains are the only things that make us different. Which is similar to saying that big teeth made sabre tooths different, big claws made velociraptors different, and simply being big ass big makes blue whales different.

southernhybrid · 10-17-2002, 05:52 AM

There are many who believe that morality may have a biological basis. I'm going to be computer free for the next four days, so I can't participate in any discussion, but read this article if you're interested. <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98apr/bio2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98apr/bio2.htm</a>

Talon · 10-17-2002, 06:08 AM

I think the real question is; Does morality exist at all?

Morality as we see it is purely a human construct and does not exist outside of the mind. Since it is, as dangin said a pavlovian trait, any concept of morality is diffused and filtered through the biases of those who teach it.

Having no objective or ultimate standard to base morality on, everyone is pretty much left to decide for themselves what is right or wrong and even that can change with circumstance. So I would argue the morality doesn't really exist based on it lack of stability.

People make judgements based on experience more so than any moral code and that's how it should be. Murder is "wrong", but I would not hesitate to kill the man who raped my daughter because I believe I am morally right in doing so. And there will be those who disagree and that's fine, it just lends credence to my theory.

Me personally I have no morals, no moral code. I simply don't act on a lot of my desires because I am cognizant of the consequences.

BTW, I'm not "back" this just caught my eye.

TALON

Keith Russell · 10-17-2002, 12:16 PM

Talon:

I think everyone has a moral code; I think it could easily be said that your fear of the consequences of acting on some of your desires creates your morality.

What guides your life? What goals do you work towards?

If you have goals, then there are things which you must do to reach those goals--and things which you must avoid doing, as well.

For me, this is one aspect of an objective (rather than a subjective or intrinsic) moral system.

Keith.

Valmorian · 10-17-2002, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psycho Economist:


I don't think it's possible. Even sociopaths have a sense of right and wrong. It just doesn't influence their decisions.

Um, if this "sense of right and wrong" doesn't influence your actions, in what manner could you be said to "have morality"?

I'm sure they could understand that people consider X and Y to be immoral because of Z, but if they don't care, I think you'd find most people would consider them immoral.

Valmorian · 10-17-2002, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Talon:

Me personally I have no morals, no moral code. I simply don't act on a lot of my desires because I am cognizant of the consequences.

This is interesting. Do you mean to say that if someone had a chocolate bar you desired and they refused to give it to you, AND you were certain you would suffer no consequences for the action, you would kill them to get it?

luvluv · 10-17-2002, 03:37 PM

The mechanisms of morality are somewhat innate, in that they are biological. The physiological sensations that come with feeling that your action is right or wrong is part of the machinery of the human organism. Your body reacts a certain way to obeying or disobeying the moral code you have accepted.

The CONTENT of morality, however, is learned, though I would argue not as much as dangin states.

I, however, would agree with dangin. Even if we agree that the mechanisms of morality are biological, just as a person can be born without eyes or legs, I see no reason to believe a person could not be born totally lacking the morality mechanisms.

vixstile · 10-17-2002, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin:


I do. Our morality, which so many people consider to be innate, is actually pavlovian training from our infancy. Those of you who are parents, as I am, know what I am talking about. It is a constant battle to shape your child into a social being.

Any human can be made without any moral sense. Simply give birth to one, feed it, and nothing else. Do not nurture it, do not talk to it, do not allow it to observe your behavior, raise it in a vacuum. You will have an animalistic sociopath on your hands, that is actually more of an unsocialized ape than anything we would recognize as human.

If you don't think it is possible, I can introduce you to two guys who were raised in a chicken coop by their poor white trash parents. They were taken away by the state when they were still under the age of six, but they are permanently stunted in mental, emotional, and psychological abilities.

We are animals, we have no instinctual morality, we are simply well trained.

Even if someone was raised in a chicken coop, they would still have things they desire and things they don't. In other words "values", how ever skewed they mite be from ours. I guess it depend on strictly you define morality. I would argue that even animals exhibit behaviors that could be considered morality.

99Percent · 10-17-2002, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
The mechanisms of morality are somewhat innate, in that they are biological. The physiological sensations that come with feeling that your action is right or wrong is part of the machinery of the human organism. Your body reacts a certain way to obeying or disobeying the moral code you have accepted.

The CONTENT of morality, however, is learned, though I would argue not as much as dangin states.

I, however, would agree with dangin. Even if we agree that the mechanisms of morality are biological, just as a person can be born without eyes or legs, I see no reason to believe a person could not be born totally lacking the morality mechanisms.

Wow, luvluv, you sound like an atheist already! Congrats

Talon · 10-18-2002, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell:
Talon:

I think everyone has a moral code; I think it could easily be said that your fear of the consequences of acting on some of your desires creates your morality.

I don't agree. Given the sheer number of people and deviations among them I think it's highly possible a great number of people have no morals whatsoever. I also don't agree that a lack of action for fear of consequences constitutes morality.

Quote:

What guides your life?

Realistically; Money. It's only thing that really matters in the world. If you don't have enough it causes problems.

Philosophically; Nothing. I see no grand scheme for life in general, no reason to strive for bettering the world in some way. People will fuck it up no matter how hard you try so why bother?

Quote:

What goals do you work towards?

Nothing much. Just getting my house without being screwed by the mortgage company.

Quote:

If you have goals, then there are things which you must do to reach those goals--and things which you must avoid doing, as well.

For me, this is one aspect of an objective (rather than a subjective or intrinsic) moral system.

Again you can't equate actions, or lack of, to a moral code. If one doesn't help a person being mugged that doesn't mean one doesn't think it's wrong.

TALON

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10-17-2002, 05:51 AM	#11
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Yes, we don't often think of the anomalies among us, but they prove to be the most interesting. They also turn conventional wisdom on it's ear. When you fully understand that morality is completely taught, and is in no way "natural", it really puts the kibosh to humanities "special" place among gog's creatures. Our big brains are the only things that make us different. Which is similar to saying that big teeth made sabre tooths different, big claws made velociraptors different, and simply being big ass big makes blue whales different.

10-17-2002, 05:52 AM	#12
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	There are many who believe that morality may have a biological basis. I'm going to be computer free for the next four days, so I can't participate in any discussion, but read this article if you're interested. <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98apr/bio2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98apr/bio2.htm</a>

10-17-2002, 06:08 AM	#13
Talon Banned Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Not the real world, that's for sure. Posts: 1,300	I think the real question is; Does morality exist at all? Morality as we see it is purely a human construct and does not exist outside of the mind. Since it is, as dangin said a pavlovian trait, any concept of morality is diffused and filtered through the biases of those who teach it. Having no objective or ultimate standard to base morality on, everyone is pretty much left to decide for themselves what is right or wrong and even that can change with circumstance. So I would argue the morality doesn't really exist based on it lack of stability. People make judgements based on experience more so than any moral code and that's how it should be. Murder is "wrong", but I would not hesitate to kill the man who raped my daughter because I believe I am morally right in doing so. And there will be those who disagree and that's fine, it just lends credence to my theory. Me personally I have no morals, no moral code. I simply don't act on a lot of my desires because I am cognizant of the consequences. BTW, I'm not "back" this just caught my eye. TALON

10-17-2002, 12:16 PM	#14
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Talon: I think everyone has a moral code; I think it could easily be said that your fear of the consequences of acting on some of your desires creates your morality. What guides your life? What goals do you work towards? If you have goals, then there are things which you must do to reach those goals--and things which you must avoid doing, as well. For me, this is one aspect of an objective (rather than a subjective or intrinsic) moral system. Keith.

10-17-2002, 03:37 PM	#17
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	The mechanisms of morality are somewhat innate, in that they are biological. The physiological sensations that come with feeling that your action is right or wrong is part of the machinery of the human organism. Your body reacts a certain way to obeying or disobeying the moral code you have accepted. The CONTENT of morality, however, is learned, though I would argue not as much as dangin states. I, however, would agree with dangin. Even if we agree that the mechanisms of morality are biological, just as a person can be born without eyes or legs, I see no reason to believe a person could not be born totally lacking the morality mechanisms.

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