Inconnu

Aatayyab,
all your questions you are answering for yourself. You are seeing the world the way it is, this is only possible in the modern world of satellites, tv and global tellecommunications, and is in part responsible for the increase in modern free-though, I think. The whole world of people the way it really is, death, destruction, oppression, hate, pain etc etc, quite a mind f*ck! Welcome to reality.

The USA is a landmass and as such cannot behave like anything but a landmass. The people of the USA have plenty to do every day, just like people of any other country, in earning a living, seeking pleasures, raising families etc. The leaders of the USA, self styled moral cretins as they are, as in other countries, have absolute power and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. They do because they can, and care less. Dont condemn a nations people by the actions of its leaders, please.

Radcliffe Emerson

Aatayyab,
I actually feel for what you are going through. I too anguish over things like this every day.
It tears me apart to hear about the killing in Kashmir, the Phillipines, us killing innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan.
I feel anguish over the millions starving all over the world, while we're the richest country and we don't do that much to help them unless they have something we want in return.
But I can't get over the fact that most of the military conflicts in the world all over religious bullshit, and religion is a man-made invention, nothing more.
We know so much about how the universe started and the world around us now, and the more we learn, the more these ancient superstitious myths fade away.
So yes, I think the world would have been a better place in general if man had never invented god and these stupid religions.
That's right, stupid religions.
But at the same time, I know you are in a terrible situation where you are trapped. I don't know what to say except you have to go on, and even if you lose your belief, in your county you'll have to pretend like you still have it for you and your family's sake, and that truly sucks, because noone on this planet should be forced to believe in anything, even IF that thing happens to be true.
And no government, and especially including ours, should go around bullying other countries and forcing our methods upon them.
I can't help but wonder if some of the very strict religious laws in countries like yours were developed in response to US influence trying to undermine your country.

TomboyMom

Aatayyab:

Your post is very interesting to me. The internet gives a person like me, an English-speaking Jewish atheist american woman, an opportunity to share thoughts with a person like you, a Muslim Urdu speaker from Pakistan. Your post is thoughtful and provocative. I can see that you are at a point in your life where you are questioning the religion you were raised in, but you are not rejecting it yet. It sounds like you are trying to take a reasoned and logical approach to this important decision.

By the way, isn't it somewhat dangerous for you to question Islam?

The most common atheist response to requests for proof of the non-existence of God is to say that there is no evidence for the existence of God. This is true, but somewhat glib, and I think not as rigorous as what you are looking for.

Rather than proof, may I suggest some standards for what should/should not constitute proof of the existence of God, specifically Allah. For example, as an intellectual exercise, what do you get if you require the same kind of evidence that you would require for proof of a scientific claim, such as the existence of a new planet, or something like that?

And may I suggest that the following do not constitute any valid evidence:

-"It's written in this ancient book which says that it is the word of God." There are too many conflicting ancient books all claiming to be the word of God, and the claim that God wrote this book that says that God exists is too circular.
-"I have been taught this from an early age." Not a good reason to believe something. Here in the U.S. many people are taught from an early age that there is a tooth fairy.
-"Everyone around me believes it." We can all think of instances in which everyone around me was wrong. In the year 1200, just about everyone in the world thought the world was flat, and they were all wrong.
-"It would make me happier if this were true." (that God, heaven, etc. exist.) Obviously we do not believe things because it would make us happy if they were true. That's called mental illness.

If you throw out all of this specious evidence, what evidence is there left for the existence of God?

Another thing, if a statement has good evidence to support it, would one need to threaten to harm or kill people if they refuse to accept it? What I mean is, if Allah exists, why do Muslims have to threaten to kill other Muslims for not believing in him? Wouldn't there be enough evidence to support that without having to frighten people into accepting it?

Here's a link you may find interesting:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Rene

aatayyab

Diana
Which intellectual points are you referring to for me to discuss? I would love to respond since; I am not here to vent my frustration in front of nice people like you. It is a new innocent ME which never thought like that before by "stepping back" from my current beliefs/faiths.

HelenM
Of course, I did not come on this board looking for a political asylum Neither am I looking for those USAID boxes full of cooking oil and rice after being recently bombed by B52s I am here to, well, I forget, what am I here for? A good question. See, I am a direction-less person, a useless 3rd world creature, trying to comprehend WHY, WHO, WHAT, WHERE, HOW of this world's miseries at the hands of so-called nationalists (US or Israeli soldiers, etc) or extremists (Taliban, Saddam, Palestinians, etc.). Perhaps I am wasting your time, isn't it? I should be materialistic in my points, isn't it? Of course, I sound STUPID from my posts. So, never mind. Chao!

EstherRose
Yes, there are good things, your words do give me positive feelings. All this pain and sorrow is for the world. Leaders of Pakistan, when they are debating for elections, in front of thousands of people they weep for the poor, and they promise good things in life to those have-nots once elected. But when they are elected, the rest story, I am sure is common worldwide. So, maybe that is why I am losing my temper. Maybe that is why I put all of these shhiiit political leaders onto a sacred thing called "God". Maybe, I am trying to find a NEW way out there from all such miseries. Japanese, when faced with such sorrow and pain, they don't come to this type of board for discussion, they simply commit suicide. Wow, that is quite brave/coward enough? I don't know. But they are trying to find a NEW way to handle their sorrow/pain. I am doing the same, the only difference is that I am far more coward than Japanese as I cannot even see myself being injected by a doctor's needle Life is beautiful, whenever I come home and see my daughter, the whole world looks great. But whenever I try to listen to the news or see/feel the problems around me in this world, it starts HURTING. I am sure many people feel the same way. But I brought it up simply to see if I could find any soothing from the words of anyone around?

Inconnu
No, I don't blame US people. But frankly, I am sure US people are not proud of their past or present. Sorry, but the way red Indians were wiped out, or the way Japanese/Afghans/Iraqis were bombed, this SYMBOLISES US people and how do they think about other human beings NOT belonging to their color, religion, or their own political system. Sorry, I am a Muslim and Pakistani and as these two identities, I got nothing but HATE for USA, partly for US people too who elect such baaastards or who conjure up such "secular new world order". But let me assure you, I won't be amongst those who will BUTCHER every "Daniel Pearl" amongst US common people. USA is responsible for many THINKING people like me to think against GOD or existence of such. If that happens, and if I become a GOD-less guy, let me assure you, my daughter and wife will become too. I will preach this GOD-less thing to everyone. In such case, when I collect many such GOD-less people around me, we would be the easiest converts to SERIAL MURDERERS, as we won't believe in any type of justice. We would bring the chaos that NO-ONE has even witnessed so far. We would NOT kill like America kills today i.e. with bombs. We will kill in a very FRIGHETING way as you see JACK THE RIPPER movie. Sorry, no harm meant for any Atheists here. Since, I won't believe any God, why would I care for any thing around me, no discipline, all selfish, never caring for anyone, completely out of PURPOSE to exist, and zillion other problems. Right now, perhaps the Atheists are 0.001%. And these Atheists of today are nice, educated and GOOD people. But when you see masses converting to such Atheism just because of the miseries put upon them by USA or other nations, I fear to envision a world like that.

Mollymac
PURPOSE is everything. Nothing exists in this world or universe without purpose. Try to come out with anything, just about anything, even shhiit got a purpose

River
Let me assure you, you will never get defeated by many around you on this forum. You got knowledge and your own reasoning to defend your belief. And as long as you are honest to yourself, that is great. However, regarding all your FLUFF, well, as I said, I don't believe all that. I believe in one God and His Messenger. His Messenger suffered in this world quite a lot and even soon after His death, the Islamic world suffered too, but again, I have yet to find any other better religion than Islam. I heard many Atheists here, but let me assure you I am Alhamdolillah, still a Muslim, but rather a more faithful Muslim. I came here to see how these GOD-less people think and behave? I thought of them something like aliens, but found out they are innocent, good and thinking types. However, they are not making any BIG difference in the world out there since they got no PURPOSE. I give purpose very big importance. For example, I love my daughter, not because she is my daughter, but because I have her innocent looks and beliefs around me. I try to see God's beauty in every child. The way these little fellows act, walk, run and spread smiles around themselves I have no doubt that the type of suffering being imposed on Islam since many centuries and it is still the world's largest growing religion. I see the one billion Muslims around me and the call of Muezzin gives me relief. I HATE to become what US or British or Israelis are today. They are all destined to ANARCHY and moving very fast towards that. What will be left is the peaceful message of Islam. Yes, I am with the oppressed Muslims and my Allah. However, I don't believe in suicide. Unless I have B52s, I won't fight USA. That does not mean I won't fight at all. I am right now at war with myself and want to come out more stronger than before. Only then, the world will know the different ME. I want something like NAMELESS goodness in this world brought in a very planned way that is OPEN to everyone, without any difference of religions/races/colors. In the same way, I want a NAMELESS fighter/s in this world that will KILL the evil with the same weapons it possesses. River, right now, I CANNOT convert to any other religion since I know the fate of such souls in my country i.e. DEATH. If I will convert, I will convert to something new such as HUMANISM. But this GOD thing, I cannot rid of. Since, I have been believing in it since 33 years and it has become part of ME. I don't know why some people said, religion makes some brainwashed. I don't want to be labeled like that. But again, I am afraid of LOSING my GOD this way. Can you help?


To You ALL:
Love, Peace, and Thanks to you all for giving me an opportunity to SHARE my NEW me with you

River

I do not Respect your website. I shall use 2 quotes from the site.


" Muslims are not terrorists. Islamic terrorism is due to the bad teachings of the Quran."

"To see what is right an`d not to do it is cowardice." --Confucius


Okay. there is a problem . " bad teachings of the Quran"- thats rather blatant and insensitive.

Secondly as a Muslim I respect Confucias(pbuh) as a Prophet and his quote does not undermine the Quran in any way.

and also :

"This site is created by ex-Muslims to help Muslims leave Islam
Islam is a lie and this site is the proof. "

nice. I could just as well direct you to a site jewsforallah.com made by ex-Jews who now believe in the authenticity of the Quran. So what's the point?

River

Where is Your 100% No Proof of the Existence of Allah ( God) ?

Does it go something like this:

Why does so much bad stuff happen to good people?

or more like this:

If G-d is so G--d ....why is there so much Cruelty in the World?

Now ask yourself or selves if this is Objective?

Now if your answer is Yes ....How can you ever be sure since this Objectivity did stem from a Subjective Mind? How can Your Science be perfect if it stemmed from Imperfect " Souls' ..i.e the hu-man mind. And then you say sumthing that sounds like this:

But seeing is Believing!

And then the creature named River replies with a statement that sounds something like this:

Do you see water? Or is what you see H20? Have you (Mark) individually confirm that there is 2 hydrogen atoms in every molecule of water? Have you seen that massive "egg-shaped" Oxygen atom? But you reply , in desperation " But I believe the words of men, that came before me!".

River

Where is Your 100% No Proof of the Existence of Allah ( God) ?

Does it go something like this:

Why does so much bad stuff happen to good people?

or more like this:

If G-d is so G--d ....why is there so much Cruelty in the World?

Now ask yourself or selves if this is Objective?

Now if your answer is Yes ....How can you ever be sure since this Objectivity did stem from a Subjective Mind? How can Your Science be perfect if it stemmed from Imperfect " Souls' ..i.e the hu-man mind. And then you say sumthing that sounds like this:

But seeing is Believing!

And then the creature named River replies with a statement that sounds something like this:

Do you see water? Or is what you see H20? Have you (Mark) individually confirm that there is 2 hydrogen atoms in every molecule of water? Have you seen that massive "egg-shaped" Oxygen atom? But you reply , in desperation " But I believe the words of men, that came before me!".

Biff the unclean

Where is Your 100% No Proof of the Existence of Allah ( God) ?
By definition your God is everywhere. It's one of his superpowers.
Well, he's not here. I checked and rechecked.
If he's not here he's not everywhere. If he's not everywhere he's not God.

Why does so much bad stuff happen to good people?
That not proof that there is no God. That's the proof that your holy book is full of bull.

Now ask yourself or selves if this is Objective?
Yes, it's objective

Now if your answer is Yes ....How can you ever be sure since this Objectivity did stem from a Subjective Mind?
Because as I told you I checked and rechecked. Feel free to do your own experiments. If you can produce a God by all means let us know
How can Your Science be perfect if it stemmed from Imperfect " Souls' ..i.e the hu-man mind.
We didn't claim it was perfect. We claimed it was the best method we have for finding the truth

But seeing is Believing!
I would broaden that to "Perceiving is believing." But only if the truth has value to you. If you don't care about truth you'll believe anything.

And then the creature named River replies with a statement that sounds something like this:
Are you always this pretentious or is this an act just for us?

Do you see water? Or is what you see H20? Have you (Mark) individually confirm that there is 2 hydrogen molecules in every molecule of water? Have you seen that massive "egg-shaped" Oxygen atom? But you reply , in desperation " But I believe the words of men, that came before me!".
Men who came before me who conducted experiments that I can replicate to check their conclusions. This particular experiment you should have been doing in science class in junior high. Were you out that day? Or do you choose to misrepresent science in an attempt to make your baseless claims seem less worthless than they obiviously are?
And I can assure you that I don't feel even the slightest twinge of desperation. So you can drop this spiritual-creature act of yours anytime you like.
Science claims nothing that is not checkable by you. Which is more than I can say about your fictional god.

aatayyab

Mark, you could not win, River won. Sorry, try some good reasoning instead of acting like "whatever you say, I oppose". Thanks for SWALLOWING this critic since I am also just like you, on the quest to find out the truth.

Amir Ali Tayyab

River

I am not saying Science is wrong. If I did that would actually weaken all my arguments . However, I must ask you how much of what you see and hear in the science book has been validated by you? Its not the Hypothetical concept of " But I can " (Replicate).

Your misrepresentation of the " G-d is everywhere" is in fact tied to the primitive notion of personalize-ing the concept of G-d ...and thus embedded deeply in most societies.

You are right : The Key is really" Perception"

However, we are limited to 5 senses and have a very poor concept of Time and Space. Thus , in theory it should be harder for you to prove the lack of existence for G-d.


Have a nice day.