Peter Soderqvist

The second law of thermodynamics says only that, entropy increase in the universe, and entropy is a measure of disorder in a system through Boltzmann equation S = k log w, or Schrodinger' s equation S = k log D. The equation doesn't say anything about order! But order can be formulated as Order, or negentropy = k log (ID). This formula is the inverse of disorder! That disorder increases with time is something we can see in our daily living, because houses wear down through time, even organism wear down through time if we don't refuels! Houses need thus restoration work, and organisms needs oxygen, food, etc, this input sustain or creates order by this formula Order = k log (ID). And the restoration workers use electricity and oil. It can be shown by physicists that Disorder = k log D increase always more than Order = k log (ID). Because our input of ordered energy ("food") is less than our output of disordered energy (waste products). Therefore order doesn't violates the second law of thermodynamics, but the Creation Story violates the first law of thermodynamics, which states that; energy cannot be created, nor destroyed, it can only be transformed into other energy forms according to the law of conservation! Tell the creationists that organisms poofed into existence violate the first law of thermodynamics!

Albion

Oolon and I have asked the creationists on the BBC board about four times over the last couple of months to explain how fiat creation ex nihilo can be compatible with the first law and have received no responses. Obviously it's made no difference to the creationists there, who are still trotting out the usual pseudoscience in all the usual arguments. Then again, we know this whole debate isn't really a scientific issue for creationists.

Peter Soderqvist

Soderqvist1. Yes, it is truth that no system can sustain the second law without input of negentropy, but the burden of proof is unreasonable, since there are too many systems, but the reverse is reasonable, namely; do you know about any system, which can sustain order without input of negentropy?

RufusAtticus

I broke the law of thermodynamics today.

I put water in a used olive oil bottle and shook it. Before my very eyes, disorder became order! I broke the law.

GunnerJ

There's a t-shirt idea in there, Rufus...

Demigawd

Yeah, but I think the American populace, in general, is too enamered with the song that goes "I broke the Law, but the Law won" to appreciate that category of t-shirt slogans.

Peter Soderqvist

Soderqvist1: a sugar cube in a hot cup of coffee spreads evenly in the cup!
Your shakings burns a tiny amount of calories; one definition of entropy is the amount of energy unavailable to do work! But oil dropped in a cup, doesn't spread evenly in its water, but its chemical reaction with water releases heat as output into the environment! Heat is the most disordered energy known! I think that the amount of combusted calories from your shakings, and heat from this chemical reaction between oil, and water, represent a higher amount of disorder, than oil separated from water represent order! The water in this cup evaporates with time, vapor is a higher entropy state than water, and oil wear down trough time too, and thus with time all will be gone. Btw, bioenergetics is the branch of science, which deals with the law of thermodynamics relation to biological systems!

Jabu Khan

I don't see how anyone can see evolution as contradicting the laws of thermodynamics. Look at the amount of resources it takes a single-celled organism to flutter about compared to its mass and then look at the amount it takes a human being compared to his mass.