brighid

I think if critical thinking skills were taught and valued, with the addition of whole picture type information (testimonies from both sides of the argument) that we would see a lot less conflict and hatred in any society. As it is we aren't taught critical thinking skills and we are easily manipulated by myth and fallicious appeals to emotion (whether religious, secular or otherwise.) I also think societies should be highly integrated socially, ethnically, with regard to gender, class, etc. I really is difficult to maintain hateful stereotypes about people when you know many from all segments of society, walks of life, etc.

Knowledge is key and the restriction of knowledge and the manipulation of it is probably the root cause of many historical strifes for isn't one country's freedom fighter another country's terrorist?

Brighid

auto-da-fe

That is a good point Brighid. A way to explain it is that racism and religion both involve the restriction of knowledge (either willfull, or unintentionally). I know this wasn't exactly your point, but it does follow does it not?

brighid

Yes, it does follow ... quite well I think.

Discomfort and misunderstanding (usually at the root of racist and elitist feelings, religious or otherwise) can be overcome through exposure to what one holds false opinions about.

All Christians are not intellectually inferior, All Muslims aren't terrorists, all blacks aren't lazy and unqualified, all women ... you get the drift. The more people one interacts with on both positive and negative levels the easier it is to see that people are more similar than different. There are bad apples in every bunch and extremists of every sort, but if we are guided by the best light of reason (to borrow from MLK) we do our best (and sometimes fail) to judge the merit of the individual. Should a man be judged as some violent Neanderthal, incapable of nuturing and driven strictly by animalistic drives because he is male? No. The same applies to the religionist, the atheist and every one in between.

Brighid

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Do you agree though that so long as religion exists, there will be extremist (or fundies as they are called around here)?

As far as racism goes.... that is a little more complicated, since a great many more extremeist follow racism than religion. I have always liked your ideas of integration as a way to solve it, but that is hard to acheive in the mostly white, or mostly black, or mostly hispanic neighborhoods of todays America where racism is usually fostered.

brighid

I don't know. I think certain personalities gravitate toward extremism and I am not sure that new lines of thought wouldn't develop to promote extremism. I think extremism, in any form shouldn't be tolerated from similar groups or society at large.

I really do not believe in the elimination of religious thought. I think alot of the problems could be eliminated if religous choice was only that made by adults. Children should be educated in critical thinking and reasoning skills and have accurate information about religion, its development, history, etc. Once they have reached a specific age of maturity they could then make educated decisions about religion. I think FAR fewer people would ever become extremists if this was the course of action for ALL children (through out the world.) An extremist mind set would have a difficult time infecting its host if notions of men walking on water, gods being ressurected in any form, etc., etc. were examined like religionist examine other mythologies.



Yes, it would be difficult and I am not sure how one could actually go about the full integration of neighborhoods, except perhaps in the realm of public education beginning at the primary school levels.

I recently went to a community fair of a very diverse neighborhood (not my own, but one we had considered moving to.) The difference in the way people interact when they exposed daily to different people is refreshing. Even as the only white woman amongst all black females and children I did not feel awkward. As a single parent of a biracial child in an affluent neighborhood no one looked twice. I was one amongst many and if anything I was the norm rather then the exception. It was a wonderful afternoon that I wish all people could experience.

One of the reasons we actually didn't move to this town is housing is rather expensive. We could afford an apartment, but we were both sick of renting and homeownership that would have been next to impossible. We visit there when we can and I had forgotten how much I loved that town. Thankfully our neighborhood is pretty diverse, although it is still predominantly white.

Brighid

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I have been discussing this with a colleague of mine, which has prompted me to change one of the 7 different similarities I described earlier. Specifically number three. I said;

What I mean by this is the methods in which both racism and religion are taught require little to no higher thinking. The methods used to understand that teaching also require little to no higher thinking. If higher thinking is used in either the teaching or the understanding of racism or religion, then it gets much harder to subscribe to the tenents of either one.

I was not trying to make a blanket statement about all religious people, or racist people being stupid.

brighid

I would disagree. I think plenty of highly educated, otherwise intelligent people are both religious and racist. If you do any research about the actual development of non-white racism (and the criteria for who is or is not white) in the US you will find it supported by many well-educated, intelligent people (specifically those in the scientific community.)

I think people can simply be blind to their own prejudices, even if they are highly skilled and intelligent in other areas of life. One could even look to Nazi Germany for examples of otherwise highly educated and intelligent people buying into the racial stereotype of the Juden Rat, etc. One could even look to Israel today and see racism and religous extremism rampant amongst the educated.

I think some uneducated people are more likely to be sucked into the extremist mindset because they more easily manipulated.

I do agree with you that some religious doctrines and racism are closely related, and often times go hand in hand. It would be incorrect to correlate that one is unintelligent (or below average intelligence) because one is a theist or a racist (even if some people are.)

I would guess that racism is more rampant in religious systems that place a high value on shame and retribution. It is much easier to look at one's neighbor who isn't like one in appearance and say "they" are responsible for the problems visited upon one by God, or for the moral decline of a "religious" socieity then it is to examine ones own faults. I think it is especially hard to learn when a religious system doesn't teach personal responsibility.

I just do not want to see the kind of blanket statements (about racism, etc.) made in this forum that aren't supported by evidence.

In the end, I really do think religious affiliation and racism are largely social constructs set up to give one group unfair advantage over another. Many people are heavily invested in maintaining the status quo. It is unfortunate, but it is true.

Brighid

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brighid,

That is my point exactly. Not thinking of the person as a whole, but only that part of them that is a theist, or is a racist, they have not applied higher thinking (or critical thinking) to their beleifs.

brighid

Okay, thank you for the clarification as that wasn't apparent to me in your recent post. Maybe the similarity could be reworded to say something more like what you just stated.

Brighid

auto-da-fe

that is why I amended what I said originally into:

What I mean by this is the methods in which both racism and religion are taught require little to no higher thinking. The methods used to understand that teaching also require little to no higher thinking. If higher thinking is used in either the teaching or the understanding of racism or religion, then it gets much harder to subscribe to the tenents of either one.