Pyrrho

Lincoln did not free all of the slaves; he only freed those who were in the Confederate states, which did not include states like Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland, which, I believe, were states where it was legal to have slaves. In other words, he only freed slaves in states over which he did not have control at the time, probably in an effort to aid the North in winning the war.

Pyrrho

You state that the "Founders" were gross hypocrites because they did not advocate equality for blacks, even though they said that "all men are created equal", but then you say that they regarded blacks as "subhuman". If they are subhuman, then it is not hypocritical to deny them the same rights as humans, any more than it would be hypocritical to deny the same rights to cows.

(Of course, I disagree that blacks are subhuman, and frankly regard the concept of "race" as extremely problematic, as there are no clear distinctions between the different groups of people—when looking at people, their skin color is generally lighter the further from the equator their ancestors lived; typically, those whose ancestors came from Norway have lighter skin than those whose ancestors came from Italy, though both are considered "white". And as one goes further toward the equator, the skin gradually darkens. There simply is no clear division between different "races" of people.)

Pyrrho

Not all of the "founders" agreed on such matters. If my memory is correct, Jefferson wanted to abolish slavery at that time, but knew it would never be agreed to by others at that time, so he accepted slavery as part of the new country.

As for him owning slaves himself, this, again, was probably pragmatic; if all slaves were freed, then paid labor would go down in price and he might be able to afford to pay workers on his estate, whereas he probably could not afford to free his slaves and then hire people to work there at the going rates of pay for the time. (Mind you, I am not saying that that means that what he did was right or okay, but it is good to consider why things were done the way they were done, so one can then be in a position to judge the matter accurately.)

Godless Dave

I think it's a mistake to try to paint all the founders with the same brush. Some were morally opposed to slavery, others wanted it to continue, and the Constitution was a compromise between them.

Alexander Hamilton, for example, did not own slaves and advocated abolition.

Pyrrho

I don't think most of the "founders" regarded black people as equal to whites, even among those who regarded slavery as a bad thing.

Additionally, black Americans certainly did not receive equal rights in the 1860's at all; they merely were no longer slaves. It wasn't until 1964 that the Poll Tax was abolished (Amendment XXIV). (The Poll Tax was a fee collected when one voted, and was commonly used to deny people the right to vote based on race.)

Even if black people officially have equality under the law today, that does not mean that they actually have equality. If, for example, we look at who gets sentenced to death in the U.S. today, you will find that things seem rather arbitrary and involve a disparity in the numbers involving black people versus white people.

fatherphil

do you honestly think the union could have survived a civil war in 1780?

Pyrrho

Are you suggesting that slavery is better than "taxation without representation"?

Grad Student Humanist

Assuming there would have been a war, it would have been far better for it to have taken place in 1780 with the abolition of slavery then to let slavery persist for almost 85 more years.

Grad Student Humanist

I agree. This is what is always taught about Jefferson. That he disliked slavery, but that he tolerated it because society just wasn't ready to abandon it.

My point is that this is the incorrect moral position. I have no doubt that Jefferson did not consider black people inhuman. If the stories are to be believed, he had a deep relationship with Sally Hemmings who was black. Thus, he must have known that slavery was wrong and the moral thing to do would have been to advocate abolition and education for the freed slaves so that they could participate in the democracy like everyone else. I think that position would be more in line with the thinking embodied in the Declaration of Independence.

PopeInTheWoods

Gee, it's really lucky that Jefferson was in France when the Constitution was actually written....