Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 05-23-2003, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spaz
Well it would seem to make sense, being as god would have made us this way, that when we tried to be our best to those around us and use the love that god wants so much that it would be enough for god. Your version seems to be a little mind game where god says "you're not good enough, so don't try to be good, just accept this dude instead of actually trying to do anything."

When did i ever say that good deeds and being a good person weren't important? They are, they can just never pay back the debt to God for sinning against Him. Good deeds can't save you, but when are you saved - you have a new look on life and desire to do things for God - you are no longer trying to be a good person to save yourself - you are doing it because you love God and your fellow humans, and want to live your life for Him like Jesus did.

Tenek · 05-23-2003, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
God loves you, but no works or deeds you do are good enough to pay for a lifetime of sins against God. Its impossible for any normal human to do. If God wasn't merciful and loving - he would have held us accountable for our sins, and let us all face our punishment for sinning against Him - he in no way had to pay our debt - He did it because of how much He cares about us. No matter how much you don't believe in Him, he's there - waiting for you to give up your pride and accept Him into your life.

If God was merciful and loving I'd believe in Him because He wouldn't sit around and wait for his fanboys to convert me.

And yes, He does have to pay our debt, if He created us, and if He didn't, then He has no right to judge at all.

Nowhere357 · 05-24-2003, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Because no human is "good" compared to God - you are about the most arrogant person in existence if you think anything you do even comes close to the perfection of God. But God knowing this, didn't require us to do works or live a good life because he knew, no human could do it - so He did it himself and the only requirement is to believe in and accept His gift to us. Salvation doesn't get any simpler.

Salvation doesn't get any stupider. God apparently is not interested in our morality - he is interested in acquiring mindless slave-drones.

Kill, rape, torture, steal, destroy, all you want. Then accept Jesus and go to heaven.

Be kind, loving, giving, helpful, tolerant, peaceful, then wonder what the truth is of all the world's so many religions and sects - and go to hell.

To anyone that cannot see the immorality of this interpretation of god, I question your judgement on all matters. Tell me it's raining, and I'd have to go look first.

Kassiana · 05-24-2003, 05:37 AM

I don't believe any Gods worthy of the name would deny salvation to anyone, assuming we needed it at all (which I do not). So if there is a deity which requires salvation, we are universally "saved."

AJ113 · 05-24-2003, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
God loves you, but no works or deeds you do are good enough to pay for a lifetime of sins against God. Its impossible for any normal human to do. If God wasn't merciful and loving - he would have held us accountable for our sins, and let us all face our punishment for sinning against Him

Are you aware of the stupidity of this statement? If we are born naturally sinful, how can we be fairly held accountable for our sins?

Quote:

- he in no way had to pay our debt - He did it because of how much He cares about us.

What debt? We were born sinful, remember? So how can we owe a debt for something that we were pre-destined to do?

Quote:

No matter how much you don't believe in Him, he's there - waiting for you to give up your pride and accept Him into your life.

Yep, he loves us so much that he is prepared to burn us all in agonising and eternal fire should we be so audacious as to decline his offer.

Queen of Swords · 05-24-2003, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Magus55
When did i ever say that good deeds and being a good person weren't important? They are, they can just never pay back the debt to God for sinning against Him.

Since god is supposed to be the "creditor", it's unfair for him to also sit as judge, jury and executioner in the impromptu court he has apparently set up. Perhaps he should appoint a more neutral body to mediate this conundrum.

Good deeds can't save you, but when are you saved - you have a new look on life and desire to do things for God

Why? Even then, are not all your good deeds as filthy rags? How many filthy rags does God need?

are no longer trying to be a good person to save yourself - you are doing it because you love God and your fellow humans, and want to live your life for Him like Jesus did.

If Jesus lived his life for god, and Jesus was god, then Jesus was living his life for himself. So wouldn't it be all right to emulate Jesus and live my life for myself?

Writer@Large · 05-24-2003, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
God loves you, but no works or deeds you do are good enough to pay for a lifetime of sins against God. Its impossible for any normal human to do.

Considering, in the Xian mythos, it is *he* who wrote the rules, placed the pieces, and stacked the deck, this hardly seems reassuring.

Quote:

If God wasn't merciful and loving - he would have held us accountable for our sins, and let us all face our punishment for sinning against Him

This is why the Xian mythos repulses me. "Jesus paid for your sins! But if you don't believe in him, you're gonna pay Jesus back in HELL!" A child is BORN into debt, begins accuring ADDITIONAL debt from the moment they're born, and is eternally held accountable to the loan officer.

--W@L

111111 · 05-24-2003, 07:35 AM

The entire Holy Bible, if taken at face value, appears quite vile and evil, I'll agree. But learn to peel back it's skin, and you'll find treasures beyond imagining.

Writer@Large · 05-24-2003, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 111111
The entire Holy Bible, if taken at face value, appears quite vile and evil, I'll agree. But learn to peel back it's skin, and you'll find treasures beyond imagining.

111111, if you were to open a new thread here in GRD with the above statement as its hypothesis, I'm sure many of us would like to see exactly what you mean by "treasures beyond imagining." I'd ask you to name them here, but that would seriously derail this thread.

--W@L

Queen of Swords · 05-24-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by 111111
The entire Holy Bible, if taken at face value, appears quite vile and evil, I'll agree.

How strange that a god would inspire a holy book that appeared quite vile and evil.

But learn to peel back it's skin, and you'll find treasures beyond imagining.

I wholeheartedly agree. When I peeled back the skin of the bible, I realized how hollow a book it was, and I became an atheist. That was a treasure, one which I could never have imagined or gained as a fundamentalist.

View Poll Results: Which best describe{s\|d} your attitude towards salvation?
Repent and be Baptized (Acts 2:38)	1	5.26%
Confess with the mouth, Believe in the heart (Romans 10:9)	5	26.32%
Do justice, love Mercy, walk Humbly (Micah 6:8)	2	10.53%
As you measure others, you will be measured (Luke 6:39)	1	5.26%
Any, all, other	10	52.63%
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05-24-2003, 05:37 AM	#14
Kassiana Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,046	I don't believe any Gods worthy of the name would deny salvation to anyone, assuming we needed it at all (which I do not). So if there is a deity which requires salvation, we are universally "saved."

05-24-2003, 06:45 AM	#16
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 When did i ever say that good deeds and being a good person weren't important? They are, they can just never pay back the debt to God for sinning against Him. Since god is supposed to be the "creditor", it's unfair for him to also sit as judge, jury and executioner in the impromptu court he has apparently set up. Perhaps he should appoint a more neutral body to mediate this conundrum. Good deeds can't save you, but when are you saved - you have a new look on life and desire to do things for God Why? Even then, are not all your good deeds as filthy rags? How many filthy rags does God need? are no longer trying to be a good person to save yourself - you are doing it because you love God and your fellow humans, and want to live your life for Him like Jesus did. If Jesus lived his life for god, and Jesus was god, then Jesus was living his life for himself. So wouldn't it be all right to emulate Jesus and live my life for myself?

05-24-2003, 07:35 AM	#18
111111 Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 35	The entire Holy Bible, if taken at face value, appears quite vile and evil, I'll agree. But learn to peel back it's skin, and you'll find treasures beyond imagining.

05-24-2003, 09:07 AM	#20
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by 111111 The entire Holy Bible, if taken at face value, appears quite vile and evil, I'll agree. How strange that a god would inspire a holy book that appeared quite vile and evil. But learn to peel back it's skin, and you'll find treasures beyond imagining. I wholeheartedly agree. When I peeled back the skin of the bible, I realized how hollow a book it was, and I became an atheist. That was a treasure, one which I could never have imagined or gained as a fundamentalist.

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