Amie

Hi Michael

definitely so, no argument there...

well I agree on free from error being ludicrous...after all it was written by man

well Michael it was written by man. Although for the most part I believe it was divinely inspired, I realize that only those men who were present at the time and only those men who wrote it know what was truly inspired and what was not inspired...

I understand yout thinking, I just don't share this point of view. Michael let me ask you...why do you think people wrote the bible?

I think many believe it is divinely inspired because they want to believe it...also for many it is all they have ever known (God belief)

I too think anything that promotes hatred and intolerance is dangerous...

I understand and yes I think it does come down to the will to believe, the desire to believe...

Thanks for your post Michael. I have enjoyed reading it. I think you are a sweetie

Amie~

Living Dead Chipmunk

I believe it's something more insideous. "Fear" is close, but not the fear your thinking of.

My theory is that liberal Christians agree completely with what the fundamentalists are saying, but they're scared to admit it. Because of that agreement, they can't speak out *against* the fundies, because they think the fundies are right. But they're scared to be associated with the fundies, so they take a couple baby steps back and quietly admonish them on occasion.

waj

That's quite a conspiracy theory. Bishop Spong says "God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms" because he wants to hide his secret, complete agreement with Jerry Falwell? I don't get it.

Vesica

l.d.Chipmunk - Instresting view and an amazingly illogical statement. Silence in any given observation period equals assent? Gee, you didn't say anything in that post about being against torture or child molestation or nuclear holocausts and that means....? *The above was meant in the most benign, joking way possible.*

As for silence, I think the problem is that the crazy X-ians have private funding to broadcast thier views and then are given free airtime by the media who want to 'expose' them. No one gives air time to people saying normal, moderate things. Also, a lot of the speaking out against 'fundies' is happening inside churches, in which case one actually has to be there to hear it (or watch the broadcast). I am pleased to say that criticisms are being aired from the pulpit at my church...in response to ridiculous and hatemongering statements like 9/11 was a judgement. Our pastor repeatedly quoted some of the talk being aired by fundies and explained why it was absurd and frankly Un-biblical.

Personally, I have never been accused of being silent and am annoyed/royally peeved at the idiots that get up and spout these things in the name of my religion. Unfortunately I have not found the time or dedication to turn myself into a media personality for the express purpose of refuting these people. I have engaged/confronted people that have aired these views in front of me...much to thier annoyance I am sure!

Living Dead Chipmunk

No, but a history of silence might.

Where were the liberal Christians when Robertson went on TV and blamed 9/11 on the pagans, gays, atheists, humanists, and democrats? Or when he predicted Florida would be hit with a meteor for allowing the Gay Day parade at Disney Land? Where were the liberal Christians when Swaggart and Hinn were exposed as frauds? Where were the liberal Christians at Matthew Shepherd's funeral?

And, most importantly, where are they now on the plethora of church-state separation issues at the forefront of this country? They're sitting around watching CNN and shaking their heads, maybe talking to their friends in quiet tones about how bad it all is.

I've never seen a "liberal" Christian do so much as write a letter to the editor in the newspaper over any of these subjects. In any city I've lived in, from Denver to DC to Greenville. When you say the fundamentalists have broader media access, are you talking about pencils and stamps? How much mail do you send your congressman? How much mail do the fundies?

So we have a history for Christianity being led around by the nose by the fundamentalists like Phelps and Falwell and Graham, with liberal Christianity wandering about a half-step behind, clucking in mild disapproval, saying "Oh, we're not with them!" ...but following them every step of the way.

Is there truly a Christian, liberal or otherwise, in the nation who doesn't believe it'd be better off as a Christian Theocracy? I doubt it.

Vesica

Point taken...However I still think you are over the top in your condemnation...What actions will be good enough for you?? I have seen letters by moderates/liberals in newspapers.

People like Falwell will always have access to tv air time because scandal sells. No one is going to tune in to see people saying common sense things...That I believe is why these people get so much international media coverage...Unless of course it is a conspiracy and the world-wide media agrees with everyone they put out there.

Personally, I have written to my Congresspeople, Governor and President about all kinds of issues. Yes there is a tendancy for X-ians to 'stick together' but I can not tell from your post what actions you want to see....Organized protests or individuals taking a stand? Televised debates or editorials?

Well there is at least one...but I am sure confirmation bias will block this post out.

Tercel

Actually, I heard that an English minister who's services are televised around the world ("Praise Be" maybe?) spent his very next sermon pontificating on exactly why Robertson was wrong.

I'll tell you why I as a liberal don't say much publically about fundamentalists (only my very closest friends know I'm a liberal, and none of my family do): Fear mainly. Now many "liberal Christians" are completely nominalists and I would regard them as atheists. But I am most definitely not a nominalist and every bit as absolutely dedicated a Christian as any fundamentalist you care to name. But fundamentalists don't understand that. I HATE being called "not a True Christian". I don't want to be thought of by everyone who knows me as "that guy who's not a True Christian"! The thought of having people praying for me to become a true Christian... ARRRGHHH!!!
The trouble is that the liberal position doesn't present itself to be conveyed zealously very easily. It's all very well for them - "The Bible is the INERRANT WORD OF GOD!", "Believe or go to hell!", "God totally inspired the Bible", "God is PERFECT, Heaven is PERFECT" etc. What am I supposed to say? Perhaps: "The Bible contains ERRORS!", "It's NOT perfect! It was written by men!". Hmm, doesn't exactly sound quite so much the sort of thing I want to be shouting... What about: "People don't have to be Christian to be saved!", "The God you preach is an EVIL God!", "Your interpretation of basic theological doctrine is up the creek!". Er, no thanks - I'd prefer to keep my friends. (Though Orthodox Christians it seems are not beyond taking these sort of swipes at the Conservative Protestants and Catholics)

What exactly is to be gained by anyone saying all this at anyrate? Another split in the Church? Oh goody... As if anything would actually convince fundies anyway!
Another fact of the matter is that the liberals are generally secure enough in their own faith not to need to announce it to the world every day like the fundies seem to need to...

emur

Gotta jump in here. I think liberal ministers do not speak out much because many of them have some evangelicals in their congregations, and they don't want to lose them. Those evangelicals are content to stay in the church they have always belonged to, as long as they are not pushed too hard.

I am a liberal Christian. Actually a very liberal Christian in some ways. No liberal minister agrees with the fundamentalists. Otherwise, he/she would be a fundamentalist and not a liberal. (Oops, remove the she. Fundamentalists believe that it is sinful for a woman to be a minister!)

I personally deplore fundamentalist religion. I think it is a turd short of a full bowel movement. When I walked away from it, I sent out mailings to a number of people, most of whom were fundamentalists/evangelicals, and told them the reasons why. Most responded with understanding, several said they would get back to me but didn't, and one was angry.

I have been very outspoken against fundamentalism in the area in which I live. I have responded to it critically on my Public Access TV show, told my local friends where I stand, written an article in our local paper opposing certain aspects of it, and shown the problems with it in the church where I minister.

One definitely doesn't have to be an atheist to oppose fundamentalism and see the positive things that secular thought has brought to religious belief and practice.

Mel

Shake

Ha ha ha! That's great!

I was just going to say that they're on the right path, or taken a step in the right direction.