phlebas

Exactly. You can choose to fake it indefinitely (assuming you can live with the hypocracy, the getting up early on Sunday, etc) but you can't just turn it on. If it was a conscious thing, then there would be a lot fewer atheists around, I think -- I know that when I let go, I did so unwillingly. At least at first.

Now, I don't care how many miners don't die, I can't just turn it back on.

Of course, it might be possible to brainwash yourself. Go through the motions long enough, and maybe you start believing the motions mean something. I don't think that's really the same as choosing what you believe, tho.

Viti

I didn't want to be an atheist...I told my fundy friend that too. It would be much easier on me to have just remained a nominal (very nominal almost apathetic)theist. I compare it to those that think homosexuality is a lifestyle choice...who would choose to be discriminated against, threatened with violence, legistlated against etc? (Please note: I think discrimination against gays is much more extreme than that against non-believers, I used this to illustrate only).

I did not choose to be in such disagreement with friends and family.

ManM

phlebas and others,
I am only speaking about the very foundation of our beliefs. Beyond that is a matter of reason and necessity. If I choose to believe in naturalism, of course I no longer can rationally believe in theism (like ex-preacher has pointed out multiple times). I fully understand that tension. However, I am saying that the very beginning, be it naturalism, theism, or whatever, is a matter of choice. Whether or not the moon is made out of cheese is not relevant here.

Now I understand many of you cannot choose theism. That is simply because you assume naturalism. I'm just pointing out that naturalism is an assumption and replacing it with the assumption of theism is a choice. Our reason bears no impact on our deepest metaphysical assumptions. There is nothing you cannot believe if you aren't trying to reconcile it with something greater.

And now I'm starting to sound like a broken record! I got it... I will make it necessary for you to believe by the sheer power of my repetition!

phlebas

Got it. And I am disagreeing with you based on my own experiences

ex-preacher

ManM,

The problem with your line of reasoning is that almost all of us, including me, started from the reference point of theism. I didn't wake up one day and say, hmmmm I think I'll choose the worldview of naturalism. For me, theism disintegrated under the weight of its own internal inconsistencies and failure to match with reality. Once it vanished, naturalism was the only thing left standing.

Let's say I wanted to choose theism. How exactly would I go about that? How do I turn my brain off? How do I ignore reality? This would make my family very happy. Please help me.

Princess of Peace

Sorry ex-preacher, you don't. You can only choose to reexamine the evidence and reevaluate the weight and credibility you give to each piece. That's how you got to where you are in the first place.

Most people don't even get far enough to choose to carefully examine their beliefs and compare them with the best available evidence and reason, though. One can *choose* to remain ignorant, but putting the genie back into the bottle is another thing entirely. To go back to theism, you would need credible evidence, under your new credibility standards, that God exists. You would need to witness a miracle, or an unexplainable answer to prayer. Otherwise, each time you choose to reevaluate the evidence, you come up with the same answer.

I remember when I was on the edge of deconversion holding both belief systems (fundie xtian and atheist) in my head at once. At some point, I had to choose/conclude that one was more reasonable/credible than the other. Instead of ignoring the evidence, I chose to reevaluate everything.

DRFseven

For those of you who still think we choose what to believe, if I allege to you now that the sky all over the world has turned orange and green plaid, can you choose to believe me, just to prove that you can? We all think the sky is NOT orange and green plaid, but have we chosen to think that? No; we are compelled by our own reasoning schemes, based on experience, to reject the allegation as false.

Princess, ManM, Keith; have any of you been able to choose to believe in elves and fairies? Just for a few days, to see what it's like believing in them and to prove to me that you ARE in control of what you believe? Or are you compelled by your own world-views NOT to believe in them?

DRFseven

And, yes, the theist contention that we are free to choose to believe or not is undeniably wrong. We don't GET to choose; we are bound by our own opinions, which, of course, are all borne of experience.

HelenM

I think there are choices we make which relate to our beliefs or lack thereof.

I don't think people do usually 'suddenly' come to believe something; or, rather, I think that if looked at analytically, they may have appeared to have a sudden change in belief, but underlying that was a process somewhat akin to placing small weights on one side of some balance scales on the other side of which is a heavy object.

It happens suddenly that the weights side becomes heavier than the other.

But a process led up to it.

And I think along the way we make choices analogous to "hmmm...I think I'll put this weight on" each time we hear something that goes against our current beliefs (or lack thereof) and decide to be open to it being true.

Or we consciously decide, in effect, "no, I will not put that weight on the scales" when we decide not to take seriously, any evidence or reasoning that goes against our current beliefs (or lack thereof).

It's not comfortable to seriously consider what opposes your own worldview/belief system, so I can see why people decide they don't want to be.

So I don't think people really do change beliefs suddenly - at least most of the time - and I think you'd see this if you stepped back and looked at what they'd been reading, thinking, etc. leading up to the actual change.

I expect that people don't always realize the impact of putting on small weights, as it were.

It may sound like I'm arguing that we do choose belief systems; I don't know; I'm not sure really how much choice we have in anything...I think mostly I'm arguing against changes in belief systems being sudden.

To understand whether we have choices we do need to look at where the real decision points are, if there are any. So I do think this is at least a little relevant...

love
Helen

phlebas

I'm not so sure. I've seen a couple that were VERY sudden. Hell, my own deconversion seemed to move right along, too.

I had a theist friend with a sick uncle. He prayed and prayed for his uncle to get better. When his uncle died, BOOM! One big weight on his belief scale. He was angry, sure, but his uncle's death showed him that the god he believed in wasn't there. We lost touch many years ago, but AFAIK he didn't step foot in a church again after that.

It takes all kinds. Maybe the more you think about your beliefs, the more entrenched they become and it takes longer to dislodge them. (Look how long we've been working on you, Helen )

I agree about how some people shy away from ideas that they fear will change their beliefs. Sad, really.