Ronin

It is an open forum, I have not said otherwise. However, as I said, I was (and still am) hoping for a response from Sabine regarding the 'christ speak' I offered.

Perhaps she is just busy with other, less difficult, respondents.

You seem to have failed to notice that I am a humanist, which was also in my post ~ and make assumptions based on no knowledge of the history that Sabine and I share...both in these open forums and in PM. Which, I assure you, would account for whatever you do not perceive from my point of view.

Besides, if you reread the post, I was requiring Sabine address the Gospel quotes in *particular*...while making no other assertions regarding the use of any other quotes to mire us down in the type distraction you have offered.

"Don't be a hypocrite" ~ I need no 'bible' to direct me in this manner.


I was referring to the quotes I specifically listed as betraying how Christ could no longer be counted on as a model 'at all'. This issue has still not been addressed, despite our exchanges.

I hope this clarifies any misinterpretations you may harbor of my intent.

I note with interest that you favor judging me in this manner over others...I wonder why that is?

Then why are you here, IL?

Ok.

Infinity Lover

To learn, grow, socialize, and last but not least...

...hang out here with Amie

joedad

I'll have to revisit Brighid's post.

But I'm only stating an observation, namely that your bible has your god killing children, and that no catholic I've ever conversed with has ever said that this is a bad thing. Okay? It's always the usual stuff like, "Well, it must be something we don't understand. Who can know the will of God?" Or it's some other explanation even more diabolical, such as "God has the right to dispose of life as he sees fit." The more I consider the fact that catholics are defending this behavior, and worshipping a god that commits it, the more surreal the whole arrangement becomes.

I've suggested more decent possibilities such as that possibly the writers got it wrong, but to no avail. Every catholic I've ever conversed with has been loyal to a fault on this count. Surely there's a catholic somewhere who is willing to say that killing children is wrong, even for his or her god, and that therefore somehow the interpretation, translation, revelation or transmission of this biblical "truth" went awry, but it's a dead end every time. Even if taken allegorically, the action should still meet with condemnation, but it doesn't. It's weird and dangerous, although from an evolutionary perspective and history, I understand its beginnings.

joe

Amos

joe [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi joe, this thing you called "your bible" is sensored by the Catholic Church. Did you know that? Catholics don't read the bible and are not encouraged to so because "we don't understand." When we understand we find that the killing of children is equal to the killing of our firstborn and that is always the result of bible reading and acting upon our misinterpretation of it. We therefore have "salvation by faith" as opposed to "sola scriptura" and, of course, the Church knows this and will never encourage bible reading to seek salvation for that very same reason.

Sabine Grant

Hello Joedad... I do not know about the majority of catholics endorsing the OT 100% as the infallible Will of God as it has been my experience that many catholics (at least in France and Italy) do not have indidual studies of the Bible and are not necessarly aware of the content of biblical writings. They tend to depend on pre digested interpretations rewritten in catholic lithurgy and catechism.

As far as the validity of the OT as the claim that it represents and depicts the character of God accuratly, this christian here ( more on the free lance side than protestant or catholic) considers the OT as mostly written by individuals who were looking for self serving agendas to justify their own deeds sheltering behind the " God said to do so therefor it is OK".

But of course I can only pertain to represent my own personal understanding not any particular group.

I think it is also important to note in this debate on the catholic church that catholic practices differ from one country to the other or even inside the same country depending on the local culture and how it influences the degree of conservatism.

When I lived in Sicily, young christian volunteers would walk up their own calvary from Catania to a village on the Etna hills whipping themselves for the purpose of penitence. I am not aware of such practice in the US. I have heard that in the Philippines, volunteer crucifixions occur. ( that is yet to be verified). In Corsica, penitence acts which results in people harming themselves happen around Easter during processions.
In the US Bible studies are common in catholic communities especially among charismatic catholic movements. In Italy, catechism remains the form of biblical education for catholics and individual Bible studies are still not encouraged.

Also to note that there are catholics who also abide to being " born again".

Sabine Grant

Hi joe, this thing you called "your bible" is sensored by the Catholic Church. Did you know that? Catholics don't read the bible and are not encouraged to so because "we don't understand." When we understand we find that the killing of children is equal to the killing of our firstborn and that is always the result of bible reading and acting upon our misinterpretation of it. We therefore have "salvation by faith" as opposed to "sola scriptura" and, of course, the Church knows this and will never encourage bible reading to seek salvation for that very same reason. [/B][/QUOTE]


But dear Amos... where does the doctrine of salvation by faith come from ? Qu'ram? Surely the initial inspiration of the overall doctrine had to come thru biblical writings. IMO censoring believers from examining for themselves the entire content of the Bible prevents them from questionning church dogma.

What makes it that I can question the practice of using religious titles such as " His Holiness" or the accumulation of wealth given by the believers to endorse the lavish lifestyle of religious leaders? my being able to access NT writings which contradict such practices. I can only be critical then and ask those questions. Of course as a christian. An atheist can equaly use biblical writings to question the claims of christianity.

So what is the RCC doing ? IMO keeping blinders on believers' eyes to keep them from accessing arguments which would trigger critical thinking.

Amos

You are correct sabine and these charismatic catholics are not really welcomed by the church and also the movement is often stifled by the church and/or its local authorities. More often than not are they the result of protestant influences and it is just their sneeky way to infiltrate the church and save sinners.

There are some exceptions, I think Stuebenville promotes it but that will die again soon. Even here is a large protestant influence at work.

Amos

Quote:

So what is the RCC doing ? IMO keeping blinders on believers' eyes to keep them from accessing arguments which would trigger critical thinking.

Hello sabine, good question. Yes they must keep blinders on them for as long as possible because salvation must come as a thief in the night and we cannot even have one eye asquint towards it or it will not be "night" and salvation cannot be like a "thief." So the blinders must lead to darkness and only then can God open our eyes.

From the Catholic Gospel of John (18) :

"I tell you solemnly: as a young man you fastened your belt and went about as you pleased; but when you are older you will stretch out your hands, and another will tie you fast and carry you off against your will."

So we let God open our eyes and in the true spirit of Christmas are born to eternal life at midnigth, midwinter, midlife.

The accumilation of wealth comes after this when out of abundance we heap everything onto Rome for redistribution and benefit of the rest of the world.

BTW, the Catholic Church wrote the bible and know very well what is in it. They also know its pitfalls and that is why bible reading is tolerated but not recommended. In other words, if the urge to read is there you may read but otherwise not.

Sabine Grant

Dear Amos.... but I have yet to see your point about keeping believers form examining biblical arguments for themselves so they may develop critical thinking when it comes to how any church pertains to apply " God's Will".

I fail to see how it is negative for any christian to access a personal study of biblical writings. It certainly keeps religious leaders on their toes when confronted with NT teachings which denounce their greed for example.....

Are you implying that catholics who study the Bible individualy or as groups or claim to be born again are not saved by faith? if it is so where do you base that belief other than catholic doctrine?

Also to point that the authenticity of the persona of whom Christ or Jesus really was does not diminish the fact that there is a clear message on how we are as believers in God to use our material wealth. Clearly to clothe the poor... give water and food... visit the ones who are emprisonned...... the sick etc.... do you need the Nt reference to that passage or the act of examining those facts for yourself are a " nono"... it is censored? The words are clear as to the fact that those actions and deeds on others are equal to God benefiting of them....but nothing there where the religious leaders are the benefactors. The needy people are to be the benefactors and it appears that it is what is pleasing to God.
One can contest the existence of Jesus under any title possible but the MESSAGE remains. And it has great validity to a theist who claims to be a christian.

I can see how such a message from a man named jesus or anything else can be a challenge one wants to silence......

Shake

Damn, I was going to ask about the missionaries. But since that has already be addressed, let me comment on one of the replies:Incorporate the local mythologies? What? Into their own mythology? Why are Catholic beliefs true and beliefs of third worlders 'mythologies?'Omniscient insight? Where did they get that? Can they provide me with some 'omniscient insight' into the next Powerball drawing?

I know I inferred that I wouldn't say anything else negative, but c'mon! These so-called rebuttals are getting annoying.