Secular Pinoy

I don't mind your wanting to believe in god, Magus. What I do mind is your highly fundamentalist outlook, which has narrowed your perception of reality. It warps your mind, giving you oversimplistic answers, coupled with a rigidity and intolerance that makes you unreceptive to change and progress. You do not have to give up on god to question the merits of fundamentalism, and maybe eventually discard it, some of the most religious people I know and respect are liberal christians, like Marcus Borg and Reverend Spong. Maybe you should give them a read.

Demigawd

I don't deserve a :notworthy from you, Mageth. Your tenacity and rhetorical skill far outshines any disjointed ramblings I post to this forum. Therefore, I :notworthy before you.

Biff the unclean

I've noticed a trend amongst our Xians.
When they are called on "lying for Jesus" they become very upset over being called liars. But they don't claim that they are not lying. They don't explain how they are telling the truth and you are mistaken. But they don't want to be called liars. It almost seems like they believe that they have the right to lie.
The exact same thing happens when they are caught being hypocritical or making ridiculous claims. For instance this creation myth is so primitive and so out of touch with reality that viewed by a 21st century person of average intelligence it is ludicrous. While the Xians never touch the ridiculous aspects of it, like the magically produced full-grown man and the talking snake, they demand respect for it. I suppose this is a step up from their previous tactic of "believe it or we'll kill you" but it still will not do.
The story does not deserve respect, it is stupid, and it is demeaning to all mankind. I openly laugh at it as a history and hold it in utter contempt for the values which it promotes.

Hedwig

Excellent post, Demigawd. I was a fundamentalist too back in the day and your post really reflects what it was like for me as well.

Zucco

I'm just trying to get clarification from Christians about one of the foundations of their religion. I'm not labelling anything "good" or "evil." Christians will tell you god is perfect and everything he created was good. I would like to know how evil -- as Christains know it -- came to be.

Doctor X

Magnus55:

Well I think a number of posters responded, but:

To what? One has to weigh evidence, not just declare them equal. However, I am afraid, in other threads, you have denied evidence in the Bible. Thus your use is inconsistent. Your complain here, applies very well to your dismissal of science:

Not if you wish to understand history. If you disagree with that, you need to confront the evidence against, say, an Exodus, rather than just denying it. That is not debate at all.

Now this is unfortunate:

I am afraid you are citing yourself. As noted above, you have had a problem with biblical citation--recognizing contradictions, for example. If you do not consider the multiplicity of authorship of individual texts, redaction, rewriting of texts, et cetera you are really not considering the Bible at all.

Must-not-raise-question-about-child-with-tumor . . . Must-not-raise-question-about-child-with-tumor

No, you just have not provided evidence.

Provide the evidence and I will believe.

Understood, but also understand that you engage in the same practice.

Now I am not interested in "who-touched-whom-first!" I also understand the frustrations can run high. Nevertheless, I would suggest you not assume that those who disagree with you have a "bias."

I afraid it is because you have not convinced them.

I learn from debate. I either strengthen my position or learn something new.

It does not matter whether they are atheists or not, actually.

You have to defend them with some objective evidence.

--J.D.

Magus55

So explain this. If I reject every part of the Bible that disagrees with science, how can I remain Christian? Or are you claiming that science agrees with Jesus' ressurection and miracles? I don't pick and choose which parts of the Bible i can accept and not just based on the worlds view. God could have easily inspired Moses to write Genesis to reflect the current view of the universe, if thats what happened. He had no reason to state the order of Creation the way it is, with it all taking 6 days if it wasn't true. Sciences dealing with the origin of life, evolution and the age of the universe cannot be compatible with the Bible. Liberal Christians just don't want to believe that God intended Genesis to be real, because then they couldn't fit in with mainstream science. Liberals pick the parts of the Bible they like, that doesn't conflict with the worlds view, and discard everything else as false, uninspired or figurative.

Magus55

Man being created from dust, fully grown is deamning to mankind, but being related to primates isn't?

Magus55

Evil is the opposition of good, or anything that goes against God. When Satan and Adam/Eve committed sins, they went against God and thus caused evil.

Doctor X

Magnus55:

Let me take this one. . . .

I often give the response of a mentor who taught an introductory course on the Bible. His course started filled with about thirty people with gold-edged Bibles--from fundamentalist Christian to Orthodox Jew.

By the end of the week, there was about twelve of us. I think his statement, "Well, of course there's no tradition of monotheism in the Old Testament!" wiped out ten students right there.

I asked him if he was ever confronted with a teary-eyed coed who has just had twelve-odd years of faith decimated, what does he say. He responded, "I ask them if they have faith because of scripture or in spite of it?"

Thus, IF I could prove to you that all scripture is false--in fact we recent discovered that all of the NT was forgeries--written on "Official Dukes of Hazard Stationary"--would you cease behaving as you do? Would you start hurting people?

Understand, then, your conception of Christian is different than the many conceptions of Christian in the NT. If you understand that men wrote the texts, that they had their own agenda which may have had little, if anything to do with a historical figure an teachings . . . you really do not have a problem.

I think you imagine your problem--doubt.

Well, all I can say to that is I would hope how you live your life and treat people does not depend on texts written by men.

Then you accept human sacrifice? You accept that YHWH destroyed a water monster? You accept that Jesus was born twice--ten years appart?

If any of that is morally wrong . . . does it matter? Do you now change your life?

I will pick on this because I have encouraged you to study the scholarship on the bible. Moses certainly did not write Genesis--to understand that, you must consider the multiple authorship, doublets, comparison to other texts in the Near East, et cetera.

Again, if you understand that a men . . . years in the past . . . wrote the texts, you can understand mistakes . . . you can also understand the motivations. We, for example, do not to like--I hope--the wanton squishing of women and children; however, it may make sense for a writer of a conquered people to make up such a victory.

--J.D.