fatherphil

hey, i don't dispute that there are ways any of us can be more effective at what we are trying to achieve. certainly hate and rudeness are not appropriate for anyone. there are surely men who do much evil in the name of God. whether this is calculated on their part or not is hard to tell and in a way not an issue for us because either way the evil should be stopped.
all i'm saying is cut slack to folks regardless of their point of view when it is appropriate. love them as you would love yourself.

Rhea

fatherphil - we can cut them all the slack we want and it doesn't change this:
We can say, yeah, we understand getting hot under the hat. We can say, yeah we understand being unable to refrain from an especially delicious sarcastic bite.

But it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't match the claimed "reality" of Christianity.

All the compassion in the world for Magus' shortcomings won't change the fact that he makes Christianity look baseless and mean. (Magus m- or Radorth or any other christian who behaves in an un"christian" manner - there are many to choose from)

All the empathy in the world won't cause anyone to take him seriously.

I think that's the point.

It's HIS claim of HIS actions. They don't match.
Therefore, the observant atheist is to conclude... you want us to say, wow, he claims christianity makes him behave better. He doesn't behave better. But - well, he's probably right.

Um, no.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by fatherphil
all i'm saying is cut slack to folks regardless of their point of view when it is appropriate.

I'm curious. First you say, "hate and rudeness are not appropriate for anyone". Then you say, "cut slack... regardless of their point of view when it is appropriate".

So, should we cut slack for people at all times except when they are being rude or hateful? Are there any other circumstances under which it is permissible to employ a less than loving approach?

Rhea has already made a far more important point for me - thanks, Rhea!

NOGO

Actually I find the attitude described above as hypocritical.
"The fruits of the Spirit"
If you have received the "Spirit" and are therefore a Christian then why are you still battling your nature to be loving, peaceful, etc.

I have done my part of insulting when arguing. If I have abandoned this practice it is simply because I realized that it is a sure way to end any conversation and convince nobody of anything. In fact it is a sure way of pushing people to harden their position.

Christians have another reason not to insult. Alfter all their purpose is to convince people to join their community. I would insult somebody I wish to join my family.

But all this should come free when becoming a Christian and receiving the "Spirit". Unless ... there is no such thing as the "Spirit".

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by NOGO
Actually I find the attitude described above as hypocritical.

I'm confused - are you referring to my attitude or to the attitude of the hypothetical Christian to whom I referred in that paragraph?

Debbie T

Perhaps that is the problem. If a person doesn't love themselves or is self-loathing how can they love another? If you don't think yourself as being worthy as a human being how can you feel another is worthy?

I believe Christianity teaches not to love oneself but is a constant reminder of how unworthy a human is. Perhaps more emphasis needs to be placed on loving oneself. But then that goes against the foundation of Christianity.

NOGO

Sorry, I did not make it sufficiently clear.
I am referring to the Christian idea that because you have received the "Spirit" then you are supposed to behave better than the next guy. I am arguing that this should take place automatically (ie, a product of the Spirit) and should not be forced in order to pretend that the Spirit does changes people and therefore is evidence that it does exist.

If people pretend that they were made better by the Spirit when in fact they are forcing themselves to behave better then it is a fraud.

fatherphil

almost too much for me to keep track of. prompt me again if i fail to address anyone's particular point.

debbie, i think self love is in the context of our innate tendency to fulfill our own desires (whatever those may be). even the self loather does so to fulfill something to his own end. hope that makes some sense. we tend to be good at tending to our own needs pretty well, the admonition is to consider the needs of others with a similar level of priority.

i wish all my fleshly & selfish desires magically disappeared upon baptism (even paul struggled with this) but they didn't. i never thought that acceptance of Christ's sacrafice was meant to be a magic profilactic against sin, but rather an acceptable atonement for it.

oh, and the line of distinction on where and when we should excercise grace towards one another? i'd say preventing injury and pain would be a good time to drop the hammer on someone.

Bumble Bee Tuna

This topic wouldn't be inspired by a certain theist member's "automatic response" insult, now, would it? And the refusal to admit there was anything wrong with that and Jesus' turn the other cheek teachings? As if you couldn't smell the hypocrisy on that one the first post you read anyway.

Excellent thread.

-B

Jobar

We unbelievers may be prone to see the worst and most hate-full believers; the Jerry Falwells, the Fred Phelpses, the hell-fire strewing drive-by preachers who come here simply to rain their self-righteous venom on us. We are, after all, self professed heathens, Christ-deniers, heretics- the ones who would be burned at the stake first, were that sort of thing still socially acceptable. So it should be no surprise that we see the sharp contrast between those who proclaim a gentle Jesus, and the God who is love, and the *actual* behaviour of Christians in the real world.

I find it a testament to the personal integrity of the ones who do not come here to hate; the ones who actually try to love us as themselves, and thereby become not enemies but friends. If we saw large numbers of Christians like this, it would be a strong argument for their belief. Alas, there are only a few believers here who truly strive to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly- IMO there are many more atheists here who exemplify such high ethical standards.

What this says about the actual benefits of theistic belief on human morality is obvious.