Bill B

Your point is well made and well presented. Even though I am convinced that free will does not exist, I feel preordained to accept the illusion (most of the time). The illusion is what makes living worthwhile. But realizing that it is just an illusion is also critical because it provides insight and protection from a harmful and fear-inducing theistic worldview that free will is absolute truth. This worldview causes excessive anxiety and guilt.

Inconnu

Hoping to pen the definitive argument in support of free will I ask myself "What is the purpose, what use does it serve?" (in context). In the case of free will there appears to be none.

Bill B

Thanks for your considerable insight on this perplexing question of free will. I have come to realize that many have given this issue a lot more more thought than I have. The randomness theory doesn't ring true for me because ultimately the macro event choice which a person makes is always determined in ADVANCE of his making it regardless of randomness. It might mean, however, that if things could start over again from the big bang, events might unfold differently, but still be determined in the sense that we have no control over them.

Nonetheless, I agree that discussing the nonexistence of free will is of little practical value in living one's life. Since we have no idea as to how the future will unfold, there is no practical reason NOT to live as if we can effect the outcome -- even if all our actions are determined in advance. What will be, will be ---"good" or "bad"---because everything is determined by the totality of trillions of events prior to it. I think most of us are hoping for "good" regardless of whether or not we can really cause it to occur. Determinists, like myself, are always hoping that science will prove us wrong!

Eric H

Quote Inconnu.
What is the purpose, what use does it serve?" (in context). In the case of free will there appears to be none.
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If and only if there is a God then he would need the greatest good purpose to allow free will.

When you look at what Christ said is the greatest commandments; to love God and to love your neighbour.

How can we do this if we have no free will?

Peace

Eric

Nowhere357

Hi there Inconnu.

I suggest that if free will exists, it allows us some control over our actions. This increases chance of survival.

For example, if we run from a lion, or attack it (natural reaction - fight or flight) we're probably dead meat, even if the lion is not hungry.

BUT we can try to over-ride this natural reaction, and remain still, which requires mental effort, and so perhaps live another day. This is the application of free will.

Nowhere357

Thank you, Bill.

You have found a way to accept determinism, that still allows us to make a mental effort, when we decide our ethics and morals. That's all I ask! So I would not argue against your position, or claim that it is wrong.

DRFseven

We can do that IF we have learned that it is rewarding and appropriate to do so. If we have not learned that, we won't do it.

Quote:

This is the application of free will.

Not very free, though, is it?

Nowhere357

I agree to an extent. It's kinda hard to choose something we have no awareness of.

Suicide is an application of free will. I wonder how we ever could learn it to be rewarding and appropriate.

A more clear cut example may be putting a hand in a flame. Can't do it without mental effort, yet do it we can, and it certainly carries no reward, and is entirely inappropriate.

This is the application of free will.

Yes it is very free. And we all have direct access to the experience.

Peace

Stew

In your example, what might a reason or reasons be to put your hand in a flame?

What is the source of these reasons?

What influenced you to take such an action?


One of the many dictionary definitions of free will would describe it as the act of choosing without the effect of external influence upon the choice.

Is there some deminimus level of influence that would not compromise the "free from external influence" proviso required by free will? If there is, then free will has at least some wiggle room within which to actually exist. If not then free will, as defined, has practically no chance of actually existing.



Stewbiedoobiedoo....bedoobedoobe

Nowhere357

To experience my ability to over-ride reflex, using mental effort, or the application of will.

The fact that reasons have a source, does not indicate the non-existence of will.

Again, the existence of influences does not indicate the non-existence of free will.

Thanks to the existence of randomness, one external cause can result in a range of possible behaviors. Free will can be seen to operate within this range.

Quantum randomness provides the wiggle room.

IMO whatever works. We are responsible for our actions, and can apply mental effort in making our decisions.