aristhrottle

But, IMHO, there is a difference. Hinduism, in one sense, incorporates differing and even antithetical strands of philosophies under one umbrella.

Perhaps Hinduism should be viewed in a larger sense than just being a religion?

Also (and my apologies for being misleading) I was more concerned with the second part of your statement:-

And,

Perhaps you are correct. Caste is never far from the surface in the Indian mind, but surely you cannot push away the fact that the RSS today has support across a wider spectrum of society. This cannot be ignored nor the reasons for it's growth cannot be ignored.


Thank you for that URL.

However, destructive a nuclear bomb might be and (for the moment) disregarding some of the motivations of the government in charge in going nuclear, don't you think that the Indian government had a duty to the Indian nation to go nuclear, especially when it was apparent that the Chinese and the Pakistani nuclear programme were (and might very well be today) far more advanced than the Indian programme?

To ignore that would be, IMO, suicidal for the Indian nation.

Hinduthvaite

1. I am not doing any cut and paste job from any RSS website. I am just sharing my experience at the ground level. The simpllistic assumption that Hindu nationalism is a mirror image of European nationalist ideologies in general and German nationalism in particular is a myth that has been peddled by Marxist-Missionary-Madrassa axis in India. Hindu nationalism starts with Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo both of whom rejected Max Muller's Aryan Invasion theory and the concept of racial basis for Nationalism. As early as 1914 when a budding Marxist Haldane found racial inequality of humanity as an empoirical truth, Sri Aurobindo wrote that the concept of race is pseudo-scientific. Dr. K.B.Hedgewar was a close associate of Sri Aurobindo and persuaded him unsuccessfully many times to return to politics. Veer Savarkar whom our assorted leftists want to depict as an Indian Hitler actually supported the Zionist cause. With regard to Second World War he took a stand called 'meaningful cooperation' with the British which in his own words range from 'full cooperation to timely armed resistance'. Savarkar believed that Second World War is a good opportunity for Indians to get martial training. He also advocated a coup by Indian soldiers. As far as Nazism or for that matter Bolshveikism is concerned his view is simple, "anyone who supports Indian cause we shall join with and those who are neutral to it we too shall be neutral." His book 'Hinduthva' too rejects the idea of race. He tells that no prophet can stop the power of sex that breaks the artifical barriers man has erected between the so-called races and cultures and from pole to pole there is only one race - human race." The leftist propaganda makes use of the confusion that exists in the Western mind between the term 'Arya' (which even Buddha used to denote his path) with the Nazi ideology. In South India too nationalist poet Bharathi rejected the idea of an Aryan race calling Tamil the language of the South Idnians as 'Arya Pasha'.

2.Neither RSS nor Veer Savarkar got disturbed because of the collapse of caste system. If one is to ever go through the words of Veer Savarkar one will find he was more bitterly against Caste structure than even Mahatma Gandhi. (I can give atleast half a dozen paper cuttings from the then newspapers to prove my point.) While Mahatma Gandhi wanted Hindus to ease out the differences between the castes , Savarkar wanted the dissolution of caste through intermarriages. He went on to construct the pan Hindu mandir where Dalists were made priests. From the beginnings of Hindu Nationalist movement no compromise has been made with regard to caste. On the otherhand the pro-caste Savarna Hindus opted for pseudo-secularism to protect the caste system. For example, they cultivated caste based vote banks. In the recent elections in India every Communist and Congress-I politician was openly stating (along with secularist media editorials) to form separate Kshatria vote bank, Dalit vote bank and tribal vote bank so that Hindu votes could be split . It is this
Kshatria vote bank building that has today crystallised into Dalit killing kshatriya private killer squads in the pseudo-secularist heartland of Bihar. RSS is not afraid of caste collapse onthe contrary the Macaulite Brahmins of socialist secularist India who are afraid of it.

3. Multi billion dollars are pumped into India for evangelical and Jehadi purposes. Theyare destroying the native cultural diversity of India. Every year we are encountering the death of complete tribal cultures by proselytizing groups like Baptist Church etc.
Jamatiyas of Tripura, Reangs of Mizoram today face ethnic extinction. It is against this threat to cultural diversity that Hindu nationalists are fighting - against the expansionist Abrahamic monocultures of the mind.

S.Aravindan Neelakandan

Amit Misra

Aristhrottle wrote:
I always go to pieces before this argument. Our Supreme Court has delivered a judgement stating that Hinduttva (not, significantly, Hinduism) is "a way of life." Practitioners of other religions find it strange that "Hindus" do not, as Sarpedon (above) says fit into any single "rice kettle." Hinduism is IMO a 'construct of convenience' proposed by social scientists who happened to be more familiar with Abrahamic religion with identifiable dogma. I think that social and political movements that seek to club a bunch of people inhabiting a geographic region east of the river Sindhu into a homogenous group identifiable as Hindus are mistaken. However, this Arabic-Persian-English term (Hindu) has been bandied about for 7 centuries now, and one has to reconcile with the idea that this bunch of people, at this time, has aspirations that seem to converge with those of people following Abrahamic religions.
My gripe about this phenomenon of Hindu-ization of a diverse people arises from the feeling that ancient and medieval Europe has witnessed something very similar. Pagan faiths have been subsumed within the dogma of X-ianity. Festivals such as Mardi Gras (Shrove Tuesday), Christmas, etc, have been incorporated into X-ian practice. But has X-ianity resulted in a unified Europe, united under the banner of X-ianity?
I fear that the Indian subcontinent is replaying medieval and early-modern Europe. There is an Indian (sorry, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalis, but I'm making a construct of convenience!) way of life, with many common features. These features are secular in that there is no invocation of religious sanction/opprobium for them. To ignore these features of commonality and harp on conflict intensification within or across national boundaries is a sick thing to do. This is why (in addition to my rabid atheism that hates privileging Religion in all its beastly forms) I oppose the Hinduttva project.
The Nukes are a different story altogether. I'm sorry, but no imperative of statecraft, realpolitik, geopolitical expediency or whatever can morally justify nukes. Maybe you should post a thread in the Morality and Ethics forum, and we'll have a better discussion.
Bye for now. Sorry, Hinduthvaite, I'll respond to your post later.
Amit

Hinduthvaite

>Hinduism is IMO a 'construct of convenience' proposed by social >scientists who happened to be more familiar with Abrahamic >religion with identifiable dogma. I think that social and political >movements that seek to club a bunch of people inhabiting a >geographic region east of the river Sindhu into a homogenous >group identifiable as Hindus are mistaken. However, this Arabic->Persian-English term (Hindu) has been bandied about for 7 >centuries now, and one has to reconcile with the idea that this >bunch of people, at this time, has aspirations that seem to >converge with those of people following Abrahamic religions.
Amit,
Hindu, as has been proved, is the corruption of the Sanskrit term Sindhu (the river) and as such many cultures have harmoniously integrated themselves with Vedic culture. Unlike the Mosaic basic dictum 'I thy God is a jealous one' the Vedic dictum has it that 'Truth alone is and seers perceive it differently'. Thus atheism is as spiritual as any devotional path to a spiritual life. I am an atheist myself, a strong Darwinian to boot but I am also a proud Hindu and a proud Sudra (the kind pseudo-secularist high castes love to hate) . Every tribal culture has been locally cherished and valued in India prior to colonization and the emergence of Nehru's breed of Macaulite Brahmin Babus of socialist and Marxist persuasion. Hindu nationalism stands for the right of expression of Indian Islam and Indic theology of X-anity and Tibetan Buddhism. That is why you find Buddhist monks and Abdul Kalam and Ashfaqulla Khan adore the walls of RSS offices. Do you know that the daily prayer of RSS pays homage to the cherished memories of Kabir and Ibrahim Raskhan? What is Abrahamic or exclusive about it ?

>My gripe about this phenomenon of Hindu-ization of a diverse >people arises from the feeling that ancient and medieval Europe >has witnessed something very similar. Pagan faiths have been >subsumed within the dogma of X-ianity. Festivals such as Mardi >Gras (Shrove Tuesday), Christmas, etc, have been incorporated >into X-ian practice. But has X-ianity resulted in a unified Europe, >united under the banner of X-ianity?
Pagan temples , sacred oak trees were destroyed and crumbled. But Vedic culture never did that to any Vanvasi culture. In fact no eastern religion does that. The unity Hinduthva is brings is far more holistic than the nation-state unity Western nation-state builders were obessesed with.

> There is an Indian (sorry, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalis, but >I'm making a construct of convenience!) way of life, with many >common features. These features are secular in that there is no >invocation of religious sanction/opprobium for them.
You just repeated what Veer Savarkar would call Hinduthva.

>This is why (in addition to my rabid atheism that hates >privileging Religion in all its beastly forms) I oppose the >Hinduttva project.
Hinduthva is no project but an emprical truth of the Bharath Varsha.

>The Nukes are a different story altogether. I'm sorry, but no
> imperative of statecraft, realpolitik, geopolitical expediency or
>whatever can morally justify nukes.
Yes Nothing ! Not even a Chinese aggression. No No they would have conducted some 50 and odd nuclear tests so far. But that is different. We love peace. We of the Gandhian variety , we just love to sit non-violently and act as cheer leaders for PLO Jehadis and Chinese genocidal goons who rape Tibet....all in a day's work for the pseudo-secularist of India ..Wow he loves peace ! doesn't he !
>Hinduthvaite, I'll respond to your post later.
I am Curious ! Yes I am !

Amit [/B][/QUOTE]

hinduwoman

Some wars are between rulers, but some are also between Hindu and Muslims. Many idealogues remove these labels because they do not want to believe that religious passions are real.
After destroying Somenath temple, Ghazni placed the lingam under the steps of his mosque so that the faithful can tread on it: neither politics, not greed for wealth, but religious motive. Timur slaughtered 100000 Hindu prisnoners in cold blood because he wanted to be called Ghazi. Babar boasted of being Ghazi, and of course there is always Aurangazeb. Not to mention nuemerous other Sultans and Mughal emperors who tried to do their holy duty.
When Ghazni was returning the Hindu kings enroute attacked him because he had done this. When he marched against Thaneswar, the raja begged help to protect the sacred idols and the other princes responded. Under the Khaljis, a Hindu confederation was formed and we have the Telingana uprising. Ballala II was asked to join in the name of Hinduism and he did. The Vijaynagar empire was established with the specific charter to protect Hindus against Muslims. Rana Pratap objected to Man Singh's alliance against Akabr as a Hindu. Aurangazeb's rule saw specific Hindu uprising as Hindus --- Jats, Satanamis and Shivaji. The entire Sikh Mughal war started with the Gurus declaring they are defending the honour of the sacred thread of Kashmiri Brahmans.
In spite of denials religious identities are real and people do fight to protect them.

I do not have the slightest intention of wasting my time reading Nazi books. I have read portions of you-know-who's book and all I can see is superficial similarities. It is upto you to point out how the ideology and method is identical and copied from the Nazi books. The only passage quoted again and again is this one:
"From this standpoint, sanctioned by the experience of shrewd old nations, the foreign races in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e. of the Hindu nation, and must lose their separate existence to merge in the Hindu race; or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu Nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment -- not even citizen's rights." A bit extreme I will admit, and we should stop that. But I am all for the Muslims becoming like Bohras or Momim Shias, and not having to hear Christians arguing that whether wearing the bindi is trafficking with Satan.
More importantly, so far I can see RSS at present day has modified their stand. They no longer insist so much on complete abnegation. They are content if Ram is accepted merely as a human hero. That is why they are all for Kalam --- to them he stands for the Musslaman Hindu, and what they go on saying is Hindu nationalism.

Interesting twist Misra have given to the Vande mataram controversy since the Islamic objection is that it asks people to worship the motherland and they can worship only Allah. also it mentions Durga and no Muslim can utter the name of a female deity.

www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/22maha.htm

Maharashtra State Minorities Commission chairman Ameen Khandwani on Thursday said recital of the national song Vande Mataram should not be made compulsory for Muslims.
Khandwani, however, insisted that he has full respect for the national song, which he said was about worshipping the motherland.
His statement came when his views were sought by reporters in Mumbai on the opposition to recital of the national song in Malegaon and Bhiwandi civic bodies. [the muslim legislators refused to sing it on Islamic grounds, not that they don't know it].
The opposition Shiv Sena-BJP combine had vehemently raised the issue in the just concluded monsoon session of the Maharashtra legislature.

The Statesman
Date: April 29, 1998
Muslim scholar and president of the Muslim Personal Law Board,
Maulana Ali Hasan Naqvi (Ali Mian), has appealed to his community
to boycott singing of Vande Mataram.
He made this appeal at the state conference of the Din-e-Talimi
council here on Sunday.
He cautioned the gathering that Islamic culture and religious
values were in jeopardy. He said the present system of singing
Vande Mataram in schools was unIslamic

Here is also another evidence of why it is easy to make Muslims a suspect: http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/p...detNAT18.shtml
Kerala Minister for Local Government Cherkalam Abdullah is in trouble. The reason: he sported a tilak at a function in Sringeri Mutt recently. Muslim organisations are after his scalp and have demanded he should penance for the ‘blasphemy’.
The Sunni Youth League has barred the minister from entering mosques. “It is nothing but blasphemy. A true Muslim is not supposed to observe the customs of another religion. Since he has defied the Muslim tenet he is not supposed to enter the mosque,” League state president Syed Ummarali Thangal said.
Several youth organisations have asked Abdullah to do a quick penance to avoid further ignominy. “He can salvage the situation by observing a strict penance,” another leader said.

The minute a Muslim does something appraoching integration, the others immediately try to punish him. But no doubt the secularists will have explain to us that a minority must be allowed to retain its own culture, even if it means violence and bigotry. It is always upto the Hindus to be tolerant, there is no onus on Muslims to be broadminded.

And now you are a protector of Hindu diveristy!
How many shifts are we going to see in the Seculraist stand? first it was against casteism, then it promoted caste factionalism as an antidote to Hindu majoirtyism; then they objected to Ram being projected as a masculine warrior instead of being feminine and gentle; now they are the protectors of Hindu culture, arrogating to themselves the right to define what Hinduism should be like --- as usual.

hinduwoman

"Today Hinduthva has emerged as the protector of cultural diversity in this part of planet".

I would say it means protection from Communists (as with Tibetan exiles), Islamists (Ahmediya sect for example are located in India because in Pakistan they would be executed for not being true Muslims) and Christian evangelists (Recently christian terrorists shot dead 20 hindu tribals for refusing to convert). All three forces would like to see India as an uniform culture without any diversity from the official policy.

hinduwoman

Moderator, I suggest this thread gets moved to Political Discussion forum. This is not a philosophical discussion and in the PD forum people are allowed to go at each other's throat. Besides it would nice for the readers over there to have a change from Israel -Palestine threads.

Amit Misra

Hinduwoman, here's some more stuff for you to gnash your teeth at:-
1. Shifts in the "Secularist" Stand :
I have argued somewhere else (this forum, last year, maybe a thread called who's afraid of the RSS). That the secularist is a bogey-man created by the RSS family. I am secular. I am not "ist". My stand does not shift. I do not arrogate to myself a role of "protecting" anyone (apart from myself, from the barbarous hordes of the RSS). I am against caste-wise categorization (you can add all the isms you want) of the population. I do not like majoritarian rule-- its not democratic. I think caste-based strategies to counter Hinduttva are repugnant. If the Hinduttvites have to worship, I'd prefer they worship a feminine Ram or at least ardhanareeshwar rather than the jackbooted ubermensch they have clad in flowing ochre robes.
Leaving my personal opinion out of this, other people whom you might like to call secular-ists do not demonstrate any logical inconsistency in opening several fronts to counteract the thousand tongues that Hinduttvites speak in.
2. Muslims and integration:
Would you, or preferably male Hinduttvites, like to adopt some of the less visible but more drastic eblems of the Islamic faith to promote the cause of "integration"? ;-)
More seriously, integration does not signify homogeneity to me. I am quite happy to have you rant and rave over the superiority of the Hindu Culture that you espouse. I do not care a tinker's cuss whether or not my fellow-citizen bows to the motherland or not.
3. "Muslims becoming like Bohras or Momim Shias" :
What business is it of yours? Why should a community with a history suddenly re-invent itself just because you don't like some of the things that they do? And, if you must invoke a majoritarian argument, the flip side is equally valid. Why can't the Hinduttvites "become like Socialists if not like Bolsheviks?"
4. "Mussalman Hindus"
Our dear APJ, another media creation much like the venerable AB Vajpayee, is acceptable to the RSS, not because he is a rocket engineer, but because he is a vegetarian? Do you get the drift of the utter kookiness that the RSS engenders? BTW, I don't like the man at all. He is the personification of the carreer scientist who pursues exactly what he knows what to do, hiding behind the value-neutrality of science. For a change, I don't love him because he is a Muslim
5. "Nazi Books":
Dear lady, please do not get annoyed at my seemingly patronizing attitude. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich is not a Nazi book. Its a book about Nazis, read and appreciated by a large number of people throughout the world...
6."Superficial similarities (b/w Nazis and Hinduttvites)":
Bingo! As soon as you begin to see the superficial, I recommend that you dig deeper.
7. "Religious Identities are Real" :
Real, yes. Worth fighting about? No. The point I'm making is that the RSS is not at all about religion. Its about political power. And, in its pursuit of political power, it is uncannily close to the methods adopted by Hitler.
I simply can't be bothered to quote from Shirer's 1000-odd pages of documentation of the Hitler era. Read it, and then attend the bauddhiks or shakhas, or wherever you like to hang out with the RSS types.

Amit Misra

Hinduthvite, please give me some time to catch my breath! As soon as I come to this thread, I see lines and lines of text from you and your comarade, hinduwoman! Don't waste too much of fingertip tissue on low-life Marxist, Macaulay-ite, Manuvadis like me!
I'll just use the post-modern device of rupturing debates by bad-mouthing 'Veer' Savarkar: The man who begged the British for clemency, unlike Bhagat Singh, the true man of the people. The man who sent out Gandhi's assasin with the exhortation yashasvi honaar (earn the glory), rather than dare to face Gandhi himself. Why Savarkar is even more despicable than the famous "lathi-man" Thatte, who used to attend as many of Gandhi's public meetings as he could, and throw a stick at him!
Cheers,
Amit
Hey, Hinduwoman;
I missed responding to the Hindu History of India in the beginning of your previous post. Argument from example does not show that Hindus fought Muslims in medieval times with any degree of cohesion as Hindus. All I will grant is that shared religion could have been one of the arguments in forging military alliances. This, in no way signifies that shared religion is the primary, let alone sole, basis of conflict in India of those times.
Bye
Amit

Hinduthvaite

Amit Misra,

There is enough evidence that shows that Veer Savarkar's clemency was more a strategy which every revolutionary worth his salt knows about. Also is well documented the role Veer Savarkar played in the formation of Azad Hind Fauj. Even Bhagat Singh met Veer Savarkar and paid respects. When Chacha Nehru tried to label Veer Savarkar with Gandhi murder charge none other than Dr.Ambedkar helped Veer Savarkar. Veer Savarkar always faced all his political enemies face to face and in a democratic manner. He did not force a democratically elected Congress chief resign by lamenting 'SitaRamaiah's defeat is my defeat'. Veer Savarkar was involved in revolutionary 'subversive' activities well after he signed the clemency petition is a well known fact. These are empirical facts I state buddy, no post modern 'deconstructionism' involved here. And as far as you wanting to prove any thing by postmodern methodology I suggest you do it via Sokal's window.
Nazi-RSS connection has been again faslified umpteenth times. If Khaki shots are to be a similaritry I suggest you see the old pictures of Congress SevaDal volunteers with stick and shots and all that. And if it is Swastika then poor vegetarian Jains too are to be accused of being having Nazi relations. And ideologically Hindu nationalism has rejected outright any monolithic racial basis as the need for defining nationalism.It is memetic buddy not genetic.
And as far as H.E.Dr.APJ.Abdul Kalam is concerned, what is wrong if he is a career scientist and again you are demonstably wrong. RSS mouthpiece Panchajanya said very clearly ,
"Does a Muslim or Christian need to change his faith or customs? No. Hinduthva is a vision that puts India before all communal considerations - the vision Dr.APJ Abdul Kalam is advocating in his book 'India 2020'. This is what is HInduthva." I know many RSS men who are good enjoyers of non-veg food. And we adore Dr.Kalam for his vision and committed mission to make India a developed nation by 2020, for giving us a blue print for doing that. Even the dust of his feet is to us Dalit and Sudra Hindus, more valuable and if I can use the term 'sacred', than all post modern thrash you highcaste pseudo-secularists carry in your brain. Jai Hind!

S.Aravindan Neelakandan