Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Psycho,
What empirical evidence do you have for logic? How about math?


Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Sheep in the big city

Does not seem to be the case:
- when I was young (until I was about 15) I had no attitude at all because it was a non-topic for me -> no revelation

- later I was extremely anti-God for years -> no revelation

- then I was very much in love with a girl who did not want to be with someone who did not believe in God longterm and put the whole religion in a nice light for me
I had a positive attitude at least to Jesus and tried very, very hard to believe -> no revelation

- lately I've been indifferent to the God-concept again and just been annoyed by the idiocy of religion -> no revelation

So I pretty much went to all attitudes you can have without a revelation and never got the revelation -> revelation is not attitude dependent
q.e.d.

Taffy Lewis

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas,

In a thread back in August, I suggested that one's attitude, dispositions, and purposes, among other things, may be relevant to whether or not one perceives God.

You might find the first post interesting.

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000512" target="_blank">Perceiving God and Choosing Theistic Belief</a>

Synaesthesia

Well "the" idea of God is actually a constellation of ideas.

I myself am quite aminable to the hellfire and brimstone and blood soaked ashes OT style God. I like that sort of poetry, great fun, like heavy metal.

Belief in God just doesn't have the attraction or emotional charge that it once did. Correspondingly, the wonderful, bubbly realization that the comos are empty of Gods is not as powerful now.

The boundless joy of atheism and watching gods have been supplanted with other cares but I remember them both fondly.

Psycho Economist

Well, a theorem proof is a priori reasoning (i.e. from logic alone) and doesn't require any evidence (axioms aren't evidence; they're assumptions). But, the instant you put that theorem to the test... say you're testing the quality of a statistical estimator, and you generate pseudo-random numbers from a distribution... you're using empirical evidence (the pseudo-randomly generated numbers).

SecularFuture

Before I became a secularist I was very open to “God”. The lack of evidence, and reason, is what transformed me into a secularist. My analytical thinking skills wouldn’t allow self-deception and belief in mythology or the supernatural.

• There is no evidence or reason to believe in a God
• There is no evidence or reason to believe in the supernatural

GH

Doesn't the Bible say something about Jesus coming not for the righteous but for the sinners? It would seem God wishes to know everyone, else he would have said, "To hell with the sinners," and there never would have been a Jesus. You don't make a big production unless you want more followers. You don't set bait if you only want those who seek you of their own free will.

Of course, that only applies to the Christian God.

What if your attitude toward God boils down to "what an asshole?" You may be a Deist of some sort and your revelation is that God started the universe, then sat back to watch without interfering. So you may see some "evidence" of God, but still think God's a complete jerk for not lending an almighty hand.

I think it all comes down to finding the evidence you're looking for. If you believe in God, or want to believe in God, you'll convince yourself there's evidence for his existance, and your evidence will match your perception.

Bible Humper

Yes! This is exactly how it is.

Now think about it, look at all of the religions of the world except your own. Both of us agree that the Hindu is engaging in wishful thinking when he tells us that he "feels Vishnu" during his rituals, right?

Well he's no fool either, so now we're looking at the strange fact that both of you are convinced that you "see evidence" for your beliefs. How can this be so?

Well, we both know that Vishnu isn't real, so lets take a closer look at how this lad has managed to convince himself that he sees evidence for Vishnu everywhere!

Hot Damn! He's looking at the world with "the proper attitude", that Vishnu exists, and lo and behold, he finds plenty of evidence that Vishnu exists!

But surely there must be a mistake here, it can't be! There can be only one true religion, the rest must surely be false. That or they are all false! So let me see, there must be some kind of hypnosis or something going on in the Hindu temples to fool them into thinking that Vishnu is real, as real as Jesus even!

Surely it is something identifiable by it's presence in the religious instruction of all relgions in the world, and it's contrasting absence from your own religion. Something both insidious and powerful capable of inspiring such incredible delusions in the minds of the believers of all faiths except yours. We can confidently say "not yours" because we can be sure that YOUR sect isn't one of the myriad religions based on fantasy because YOU couldn't ever be bamboozled by a religion that isn't true!

No way, not you! If YOU feel Jesus, then by god Jesus most definately exists. If HE feels Vishnu, then by god the poor lad's brainwashed!

What do you imagine we would see if we were able to sneak into the places of worship serving every religion except your own? Do you envision the process of religious instruction in all the rival faiths to include the priest swinging a pendulum in front of the child's eyes in order to program his or her adherence?

Could it be possible that there is no difference between the "brainwashing" going on in the religions around the world, and the "education" going on in yours?

Tell us what you consider to be "brainwashing", and also whether or not this activity goes on in the the rest of the world's religions.

Surely you've noticed that despite the fact that all of the other religions are based on myths, the adherents of those faiths for some reason fail to realise this, and the truth of christianity, even when presented with the Word!

....

The Christian brand of solipsism allows it's believers to "find" evidence for it, as long as it is assumed before that there is evidence to be found, because the religion's scenario is indistinguishable from the naturalistic one!

Theology is about rationalising a way to explain how a naturalistic universe's indifference is actually a complex expression of it's love for us, it is impossible to read apologetics without realising how contorted and irrational the effort really is.

There is no evidence for supernature, as one would expect in a naturalistic universe, so we are told that the deity "loves faith above all" and if there was actual evidence we would "merely" believe.

The universe is indifferent to us, as would be the case in a naturalistic universe, but we are told that injustice and woe are part of a "benevolent plan" so profound that we just can't understand it. "The deity works in mysterious ways"

The holy book's stories seem incompatible with the incarnation of a real deity, as one would expect in a naturalistic universe because the tale wouldn't have happened for real, but we are told that there must be a good reason for it because God is perfect though the apologist can't imagine it right now.

Prayers which are alleged to always be answered never seem to violate the laws of chance too blatantly, as one would expect in a naturalistic universe because prayer wouldn't work, so we are told that the deity answers "no" sometimes, but that he must have had a good reason for it! When prayer is indeed answered the deity apparently likes to show how clever he is by making appear that it happened naturally, even though the theist "knows" that the deity did it, he doesn't like to make it too obvious!

Miracles seemed to become less frequent and less amazing as mankind developed the means to investigate the claims properly, as would be expected in a naturalistic universe because there would be no real miracles, but we are told that this is because we are "no longer close to God", and that there are still some miracles but God makes sure they can't be proved because faith is so important to him, don't forget.

The philosophy allegedly handed down by the deity seems to be a rather crude effort by barbarians at hammering out a moral code, as one would expect in a naturalistic universe because they wouldn't have been guided by a real deity, but we are told that "That part isn't relevant anymore" and "This part wasn't supposed to be taken literally". The fact that there are thousands of interpretations of scripture would appear to prove that there was no deity involved, but we are told many excuses to explain this too.

It amazes me that the believer never looks at his own religion and marvels that despite the labyrinthine theological contortions, the unimaginably profound "plan", and the omnimax attributes of a meddling deity, that the resultant universe is indistinguishable from a universe running on it's own by natural laws!!!

You ask if we would "see evidence" if we "had the right attitude", well my answer is yes we would. And we would see evidence for the idea that we are brains in a lab living in virtual reality with "the right attitude". The same way you can "see evidence" for any coherent solipsistic scenario if only you would look for it with the "right attitude".

In the same way you would perceive Vishnu. With the right attitude, of course.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]</p>

SecularFuture

GH
There was a big production then, according to the bible that you *THINK* was inspired by God, but where is the big production now? I don’t see animals talking. I don’t see men resurrecting from the dead. I do not see food falling from the skies, or seas turning read with blood. Where is the big production today? Why aren’t things as blatantly supernatural today?

I can’t call something I do not believe in an “asshole”. I want to believe in God, but I just can’t. There is no evidence or reason to. To hear more about my story you can go here - <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=237." target="_blank">http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=237.</a> I will be posting a thread here later for comments.

Exactly! You’ll convince yourself… In other words – you’ll force yourself to believe in something your intellect would otherwise reject.

Hey – wait a minute… You're an atheist! Ugg - I should've read your profile first! I saw a few things that looked a little theistic in your reply and I jumped on it without thinking. Sorry about that.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: SecularFuture ]</p>

TerryTryon

Because the evidence offered for either God-belief or astrology-belief are the same. Because the counter arguments given to defend god-belief or astrology-belief are the same. Because the insults given to those who reject god or astrology are the same.