Freethought & Rationalism Archive

excreationist · 01-01-2002, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by critical thinking made ez:
This brings up the problem I have been working on in another post here in EofG called "New Year's Resolution" in which I am attempting to prove that all Christians have a certain amount of proof for their claim of the belief/Faith in Christianity and God. And this amount of proof, although small, is all that is needed to negate their claim to belief by Faith.

Faith can rely on a small amount of evidence, as long as the evidence isn't too overwhelmingly obvious (e.g. like the belief that you can't walk through walls)

Quote:

Increases Faith?????

Let me get this straight, in your opinion, faith has a sliding scale attached to the meaning? I thought that Faith was binary, either you have faith or you don't. How can one have faith in God yet still not believe in God. Sorry, your definition fails the test. Can you defend your sliding scale definition of Faith any better than that? If not, we will have to ignore your input.

I agree that there is a scale of faith. I mean some people might think that Christianity "might" be true, or is "probably" true or some might think that it is absolutely, certainly a FACT.

Quote:

Trust can not have the same meaning as Faith. Trust can involve having proof whereas Faith is belief without proof. Sorry, these are opposite meanings and any Christian that has Trust in Jesus is by definition of Faith and the doctrine of Christianity, going to hell.

Actually, dictionary.com says that trust is a synonym for <a href="http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=faith" target="_blank">faith</a>.
BTW, trust is not about an absolutely guaranteed fact... it is a hope, that may be very reasonable and realistic though.

BTW, it doesn't sound like you're taking your New Year's resolution very seriously... I mean you sound like you are doubting the truths of Christianity....

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]

Epitome · 01-01-2002, 05:34 AM

Critical Thinking Made EZ: Let me get this straight, in your opinion, faith has a sliding scale attached to the meaning? I thought that Faith was binary, either you have faith or you don't. How can one have faith in God yet still not believe in God. Sorry, your definition fails the test. Can you defend your sliding scale definition of Faith any better than that?

This 'test' is only your narrow definition of Faith: Faith is belief without proof

It's very easy to win every argument if you only use YOUR definitions and discount you opponants.

As I said above, this is why some atheists define faith as being that which has proof of the opposite... that way they can discount anyone who says they have 'faith' as being silly.

HOWEVER since the original question posed is about the CHRISTIAN Faith it is necessary not to use YOUR definition, but rather Faith as it is described in the gospels.

Following are scriptures which exemplify that Faith is not only a sliding scale, but that evidence can give someone or increase someones Faith:

No Faith

Quote:

Matthew 13:57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Without any faith you will not be given any evidence.

Little Faith

Quote:

Matthew 6:29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?'.

Faith is something you can have but not in abundance. For instance, you can believe God exists and even follow him but DOUBT his promises or provision.

Great Faith

Quote:

Luke 7:6 So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, `Go,' and he goes; and that one, `Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, `Do this,' and he does it." 9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

Faith is shown to be 'great'. The centurian not only believes that Jesus can heal, BUT because of his understanding of authority he REASONS that Jesus authority doesn't require Jesus to be present in order to heal.

The centurian's reasoning and logic is what allows him to forgo the physical evidence of Jesus presence and THAT is what is considered great Faith... And so it is with those who reason the existence of God makes sense even if he is not physically with them.

Faith based on Evidence

Quote:

John 2:10 and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
11 This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

John 11:45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did(raised Lazareth from the dead), put their faith in him.

These examples of evidence are miricles which people witnessed and as a result, put their faith in Jesus... Yet there were others who saw the miricles and did NOT put their Faith in Jesus- rather wanted to KILL him.

Faith CAN come through evidence, but evidence doesn't ALWAYS bring about Faith... it depends on the person.

Failing Faith

Quote:

Luke 22:31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

And finally Faith can be had and then lost or that faith can fail completley or just momentarily. What happened with Peter is that when he was tested, his faith failed him and h did deny Jesus 3 times. BUT unlike Judas, who gave up hope and killed himself, Peter turned back to Jesus so ultimately his faith did NOT fail him.

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John 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Doubting Thomas is another example of someone who was given evidence for him to believe... The apostles believed in Jesus, but their Faith was made invincible because of the evidence of Jesus rising from the dead and appearing before them.

Quote:

John2:18 Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." 20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

From all of these scriptures, it's pretty clear that when talking about Christian Faith, you MUST include that evidence, reason AND belief are contained in Faith.

In fact it would seem that the ammount of trust you have based on the ammount of evidence you are given determines your level of Faith. In other words, if you have very little evidence, but you trust in God your Faith is strong. If you have LOTS of evidence and little trust in God your Faith is weak.

HOWEVER, Jesus makes it clear that even the smallest ammount of Faith is sufficiant to do amazing things. It's the close-minded ones who have NO FAITH who will be shown no evidence whatsoever.

Sorry for being so long-winded, but when someone makes such an outrageous claim SO obviously wrong, it's pretty clear they would require LOTS of evidence to show them how wrong they are...

Epitome

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Epitome ]

critical thinking made ez · 01-01-2002, 09:03 AM

Quote:

This 'test' is only your narrow definition of Faith: Faith is belief without proof
It's very easy to win every argument if you only use YOUR definitions and discount you opponants. As I said above, this is why some atheists define faith as being that which has proof of the opposite... that way they can discount anyone who says they have 'faith' as being silly.
HOWEVER since the original question posed is about the CHRISTIAN Faith it is necessary not to use YOUR definition, but rather Faith as it is described in the gospels.

You give me too much credit here for the definition of Faith. I do not use my own, nor from any dictionary, nor from the bible stories, nor from my opponents. I use it according to the only meaning that can make sense in regards to having a true belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God. Which would still allow for all people to believe (have faith) otherwise most people will be left out without sufficient proof as to Jesus’ existence/purpose. I have explained this in more detail under the “New Year’s Resolution” Post in this Forum.

Quote:

Faith based on Evidence
quote:

John 2:10 and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
11 This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.
John 11:45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did(raised Lazareth from the dead), put their faith in him.

These examples of evidence are miricles which people witnessed and as a result, put their faith in Jesus... Yet there were others who saw the miricles and did NOT put their Faith in Jesus- rather wanted to KILL him. Faith CAN come through evidence, but evidence doesn't ALWAYS bring about Faith... it depends on the person.

This is evidence that supports my claim. Here, even the apostles needed some degree of proof to believe, we atheist can be said to be at the same stage of these disciples right before they obtained that degree of proof needed to believe. If indeed this is the definition of faith then God cannot blame atheist for not believing until they have obtained a level of proof that satisfies them as to the true authority of Jesus. This is why even the bible stories have gotten the meaning of faith wrong. Your other references are irrelevent since God's System dictates what the meaning of Faith is.

critical thinking made ez · 01-01-2002, 09:25 AM

[quote] Faith can rely on a small amount of evidence, as long as the evidence isn't too overwhelmingly obvious (e.g. like the belief that you can't walk through walls) [quote]
I think you will have a hard time defending this add-on to the word faith in relation to our discussion. Faith that Jesus is God.
[quote] I believe that there is a scale of faith. I mean some people might think that Christianity "might" be true, or is "probably" true or some might think that it is absolutely, certainly a FACT. [quote]
Might and probably cannot be applied to the word faith since the basis of having Faith is “ a positive belief” in the claim that Jesus is God. You may be confusing faith with belief…one can have a sliding scale of different meanings with the word belief. One either believes, open to belief, might believe, doesn’t believe.

critical thinking made ez · 01-01-2002, 09:47 AM

So we don't go in a hundred different directions and meanings of the word Faith. Lets see if we can confine it the the following.
Faith that Jesus is God.

excreationist · 01-01-2002, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by critical thinking made ez:
I think you will have a hard time defending this add-on to the word faith in relation to our discussion. Faith that Jesus is God.

Faith can also apply to other things besides a belief in Jesus. My point was that a belief that you will not be able to walk through a wall is a belief that is NOT faith.

Quote:

Might and probably cannot be applied to the word faith since the basis of having Faith is “ a positive belief” in the claim that Jesus is God. You may be confusing faith with belief…one can have a sliding scale of different meanings with the word belief. One either believes, open to belief, might believe, doesn’t believe.

Well Jesus certainly talked about degrees of faith "O ye of little faith", etc. For him faith could be in degrees. So people mind believe the Jesus is the son of God, but if their faith isn't strong enough then they just don't live as a full disciple of Jesus. So maybe I'm saying strong faith means to be openly confident and evangelical about your religious-type beliefs.

Bob *insert witty nic here* · 01-02-2002, 02:22 AM

I would have to say that in regards to the definition of faith of course each person will use the definition the furthers his point the most. I like to use purely english definitions because it is the language we are using, and whoever translated the Bible used those same definitions. If they didn't then the Bible is merely a subjective interpretation. The point that I was trying to get across is that it seems to be that if one is a Christian then his Faith clearly implies that it is a sign of weakness to require or seek evidence. Perhaps there is another angle on this though, I think CTME put i well:

Quote:

... Here, even the apostles needed some degree of proof to believe, we atheist can be said to be at the same stage of these disciples right before they obtained that degree of proof needed to believe. If indeed this is the definition of faith then God cannot blame atheist for not believing until they have obtained a level of proof that satisfies them as to the true authority of Jesus. This is why even the bible stories have gotten the meaning of faith wrong. Your other references are irrelevent since God's System dictates what the meaning of Faith is.

But I think this would mean death for the Christian belief system, for the crux of modern day Christianity, John 3:16, would then be irrelevant. If one takes the following as true,
[quote]Epitome:

...it's pretty clear that when talking about Christian Faith, you MUST include that evidence, reason AND belief are contained in Faith.
[/QOUTE]
then the justification for one not having faith would be that there was no evidence or reason. I have never heard nor read in the Bible anything that would imply such a thing. The Bible and Christianity are black and white: Have faith in God and Jesus Christ as your saviour, and that he was sent to earth in human form to pay the ultimate price for your sins. Don't have faith and you are going to hell.

Quote:

The Gospel according to John, chapter 3, verse 16:

For Gos so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Hime should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New American Standard Bible

Now if faith (you can put either word, faith, belief, and use any definition you like here it doesn't matter) MUST have elements of evidence and reason then in order for me to "believe", I must have the evidence and reason (from who or how?) before I can have faith. (For one who provided so much evidence for his point, it seems rather a waste that it is as fodder for any logical or reasonable approach.)
But wait this could get interesting.
The definition for "believe" that applies in this context:

believe
v.

1.To accept as true or real

Belief therefore may or may not require evidence or reason and may be based on anything it seems. But what about:

faith
n.

2.Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

So if I believe in God and have faith in Him as the Bible says I should (see Epitome's post for a plethora of references to the Bible regarding this) then it is clear that my belief can not rest on logic, proof, or material evidence. If I do have evidence or proof then my belief now rests on this evidence or proof and is no longer faith. Unless I prevent this evidence from ever coming into consideration in my beliefs (I would think this a near impossibility),or a way to ensure this would be to belive in spite of or in direct contradiction to the evidence or proof (now this sounds familiar).
So it seems that Epitome's definition of faith is oxymoronic in a sense because clearly you can not combine evidence with faith. If you could then I have no reason to fear Hell whether there is a God or not, for without the evidence or reason it would be impossible by (Epitome's) definition to have faith. Same goes if we take John 3:16 literally and say that one need only "believe". Why? Because I say that I require logical proof and material evidence to believe.
You can have it one way or the other, not both.
Either:
<ol type="A">[*]Faith must not be based on (may be in direct contridiction to, but not necessarily in contridiction to) evidence or proof. In which case seeking proof or evidence to support one's beliefs is evidence of weakness, and is a sin.

[*]Faith includes and requires having some evidence or proof. In which case there is no point to believe in, God, Jesus, salvation, or anything else that requires faith, until evidence or proof is found or provided.[/list=a]
BTW CTME:
Your proposed accepted definition of faith can not be correct. The definition could not refer to itself. This seems to be a correct definition of the requirement for being a Christian however.

Thanks alot for all the great dialogue posted. It was a great read.

Bob

Epitome · 01-02-2002, 03:06 PM

Bob: You should define evidence... in the Bible AND in a court of law witness testimony is considered evidence. It's not just science and miricles... it's the Biblical testimony. To some THAT is evidence enough to believe.

Romans talks about how creation should be evidence enough to convince us that God exists...

Quote:

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.

So it seems that Epitome's definition of faith is oxymoronic in a sense because clearly you can not combine evidence with faith.

Yes you can and I've already said why... Your definition works for you, but if when attacking the Christian Faith you don't want to use the kind of Faith described in the Bible (see verses I gave you already) than you can argue with yourself and anyone else willing to <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

*politely excuses herself*

PS> This is why I lurk...

Epitome

critical thinking made ez · 01-03-2002, 08:35 AM

Bob, I'm impressed with your last post. Seems to me you understand the dilemma I found myself in when I started to examine the full meaning of faith through a few different discussions on the board lately.

To All: I had no real direction with this subject because I don't read about the different types of existing arguments for or against God. I tend to examine my own mind and my past beliefs in reference to my atheist beliefs to draw material for my posts. So if others have dealt with this subject, and I'm sure the have, I would love to read up on it. Maybe post a link or something.

The only thing I have walked away with from this examination of Faith as defined by Christians and the Bible is this...

Christian Faith is a belief based on subjective evidence but not on objective material evidence. Yet this doesn't make sense, in that one can't be expected to risk their eternal soul on such a belief since subjective evidence can be wrongly interpreted. Faith then becomes a type of gamble, and who wants to gamble with their soul?

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: critical thinking made ez ]

Epitome · 01-03-2002, 12:56 PM

Critical thinking made EZ:[b]...Christian Faith is a belief based on subjective evidence but not on objective material evidence...[/quote]

I'm glad I peeked back in... it seems you've come to a definition which I can completley agree with....

And I actually understand you problem with it... because subjectivity is something that is not 'provable' without a shadow of a doubt.

However I maintain that is God's intention- so that we would not be so overcome with the PROOF of God that we would not have a choice to obey him or not. He seeks people who would freely choose him, not those who are compelled by force.

I liken Faith in God to faith in the love of someone. You can reason that everything they do or say is just a ruse to dupe you into THINKING they love you, and you might even find good causes to think they don't love you. But, in order to experience their love, you must let go of your doubt and just recieve it. And the more you do, the stronger your faith becomes in their love.

Love is subjective... God is also defined as love... so it makes sense to me that belief in God is subjective.

I am as sure of God's existence as I am the love my husband has for me... I may be wrong on both accounts... but I have put my faith in the subjective evidence AND of the relationship...

But again, I can understand if you 'can't get there'....

Epitome

01-03-2002, 08:35 AM	#19
critical thinking made ez Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 536	Bob, I'm impressed with your last post. Seems to me you understand the dilemma I found myself in when I started to examine the full meaning of faith through a few different discussions on the board lately. To All: I had no real direction with this subject because I don't read about the different types of existing arguments for or against God. I tend to examine my own mind and my past beliefs in reference to my atheist beliefs to draw material for my posts. So if others have dealt with this subject, and I'm sure the have, I would love to read up on it. Maybe post a link or something. The only thing I have walked away with from this examination of Faith as defined by Christians and the Bible is this... Christian Faith is a belief based on subjective evidence but not on objective material evidence. Yet this doesn't make sense, in that one can't be expected to risk their eternal soul on such a belief since subjective evidence can be wrongly interpreted. Faith then becomes a type of gamble, and who wants to gamble with their soul? [ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: critical thinking made ez ]</p>

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01-01-2002, 09:25 AM	#14
critical thinking made ez Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 536	[quote] Faith can rely on a small amount of evidence, as long as the evidence isn't too overwhelmingly obvious (e.g. like the belief that you can't walk through walls) [quote] I think you will have a hard time defending this add-on to the word faith in relation to our discussion. Faith that Jesus is God. [quote] I believe that there is a scale of faith. I mean some people might think that Christianity "might" be true, or is "probably" true or some might think that it is absolutely, certainly a FACT. [quote] Might and probably cannot be applied to the word faith since the basis of having Faith is “ a positive belief” in the claim that Jesus is God. You may be confusing faith with belief…one can have a sliding scale of different meanings with the word belief. One either believes, open to belief, might believe, doesn’t believe.

01-01-2002, 09:47 AM	#15
critical thinking made ez Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 536	So we don't go in a hundred different directions and meanings of the word Faith. Lets see if we can confine it the the following. Faith that Jesus is God.

01-03-2002, 12:56 PM	#20
Epitome Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 52	Critical thinking made EZ:[b]...Christian Faith is a belief based on subjective evidence but not on objective material evidence...[/quote] I'm glad I peeked back in... it seems you've come to a definition which I can completley agree with.... And I actually understand you problem with it... because subjectivity is something that is not 'provable' without a shadow of a doubt. However I maintain that is God's intention- so that we would not be so overcome with the PROOF of God that we would not have a choice to obey him or not. He seeks people who would freely choose him, not those who are compelled by force. I liken Faith in God to faith in the love of someone. You can reason that everything they do or say is just a ruse to dupe you into THINKING they love you, and you might even find good causes to think they don't love you. But, in order to experience their love, you must let go of your doubt and just recieve it. And the more you do, the stronger your faith becomes in their love. Love is subjective... God is also defined as love... so it makes sense to me that belief in God is subjective. I am as sure of God's existence as I am the love my husband has for me... I may be wrong on both accounts... but I have put my faith in the subjective evidence AND of the relationship... But again, I can understand if you 'can't get there'.... Epitome

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