05-07-2003, 09:18 PM
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#881
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SC
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally posted by NOGO
Ed:
Huh? The meteor that hit Siberia ~100 years ago was not a trivial mundane event!
ng: I did not say that all meterites were mundane events. Ed you are playing dumb here. In Revelations it also talks about earthquakes. In order to tell the reader that he is not talking about ordinary earthquake the author specifically tells us that he was talking about "great earthquake" or something like that.
Logically then if the author is talking about meteorites he would have specified that he is not talking about ordinary meteorites but something special. Something that would only occur at the end of the world.
The author did not specify "big" meterorites nor "big" stars falling to earth but just stars falling to earth. In fact he says one third of the stars fall to earth.
The meteor that hit Siberia was not mundane.
Meteorites are mundane.
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It may be referring to a huge number of meteorites falling that appear to be one third of the the stars. Or it may be entirely symbolic as most of Revelation is. It may just be symbolic of cosmic changes occuring in the last days.
Quote:
Ed:
According to the dictionary, an expanse can be solid, liguid, gas, space or etc. So in this case he was probably referring to the space between the rain clouds and the sea and other bodies of water on the earth.
ng: "probably" is not good enough, nor is your dictionary definition.
Funny how you always talk about context and now you look at dictionaries. Ed, let the bible tell you what the word means.
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Dictionaries are useful when the bible uses words that have multiple meanings depending on the context.
Quote:
ng: Read Ezekiel 1.
Ezekiel sees a cloud.
There are creatures in or around the cloud
The expanse above the creatures and above the cloud opens
Ezekiel goes through pains to tell the reader exactly the relative positions of the Cherubim, the crystal like firmament (a surface) which opened up and the throne of God.
Also if the firmament is the space between clouds and the sea how do you explain that Genesis says this
Gen 1
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.
17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
So Yahweh placed the sun, moon and stars in the firmament (expanse). If, as you say, it is the space between the clouds and the sea then
1) The stars, moon and sun are small (very small)
2) Ezekiel would not need to have the firmament open up in order to see the throne of God since he could see the clouds.
3) Clearly the space that you refer to does not compare to a terrible crystal (Ezekiel) and would not scroll away (Revelation)
4) The sun, moon and stars would be close to earth than the clouds.
I think that you need a better guess.
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No, the term "expanse of the heavens" does not mean the same thing as the term "expanse" in verse 6. The ancient hebrews could plainly see that the moon, stars, and sun were behind and above the clouds.
Quote:
Ed:
The conjunctive phrase heavens and earth refers to the universe, because Man's sin has had a corrosive effect on the universe, he wants make a new beginning by creating a new heavens and earth, ie universe. I am not really concerned with what the book of Enoch says because the point of this discussion is whether the BIBLE teaches a flat earth and plainly it does not, even if most of the hebrews at the time believed that the earth was flat.
The Bible says EXACTLY the same thing as the book of Enoch because the same people/culture generated both.
Genesis 1
8 God called the expanse heaven.
This definition sticks throughout the Bible.
The was no such thing as the universe as we see it.
The expanse contained everything (sun, moon and stars)
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Heaven included the expanse between the clouds and the waters AND the expanse of the heavens which included the sun moon and stars.
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