Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sabine Grant · 05-18-2003, 12:29 PM

It is my understanding that when my fellow christians mention that God is " talking to them" they do not mean a literal audible voice which thunders over their heads.
I think more commonly you will hear expressions such as " The Spirit is leading me to ...". If I explore how I experience God's voice in my mind, I can describe it as a particular thought which places the urge in me to pay attention to it. To consider it. To meditate for a while. It usualy results in a modification of my feelings or a redirection of my choice of actions.
How would I identify that thought to be from God ? because it results in a positive outcome. Certainly never in harming another individual. If any " voice " comes to my mind telling me to harm someone, I will reject it rapidly.

The same process works with a situation where I am resentful and frustrated with another person. My choice of actions could then become negative towards that person. I can become defensive, offensive, agressive, impatient, angry and my actions can reflect negative responses. Usualy that " voice" brings about pacifying alternatives and always based on the example of Christs' teachings in terms of how to treat others.
I usualy recieve the urge to give the benefit of the doubt for example. Or to place myself in the other person's shoes. Or examine my own actions. Of course I may still choose to dwell on my resentful attitudes or shelter in my personal pity party. The choice is always mine. And if I choose one of the latests, I usualy harvest what I have sowed.... which is the feeling of having wasted something precious.

The Other Michael · 05-18-2003, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
How would I identify that thought to be from God ? because it results in a positive outcome. Certainly never in harming another individual. If any " voice " comes to my mind telling me to harm someone, I will reject it rapidly.

That seems to run counter to various episodes in the Old Testament in which Yahweh told people to loot/rape/murder anywhere from their own child to entire populations.

A positive outcome would seem to be anything that results in you doing Yahweh's will, with your opinion not counting a bit.

If Yahweh has commanded his followers in the past to do these apparently "evil" acts (mysterious ways, eh?) I'd think you'd have to be very wary about discounting his commands to do so now (or at least what are perceived as his commands).

But I guess if you can "cherry pick" the Word of God, you can cherry pick the Commands of God too.

cheers,
Michael

Sabine Grant · 05-18-2003, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Other Michael
That seems to run counter to various episodes in the Old Testament in which Yahweh told people to loot/rape/murder anywhere from their own child to entire populations.

A positive outcome would seem to be anything that results in you doing Yahweh's will, with your opinion not counting a bit.

If Yahweh has commanded his followers in the past to do these apparently "evil" acts (mysterious ways, eh?) I'd think you'd have to be very wary about discounting his commands to do so now (or at least what are perceived as his commands).

But I guess if you can "cherry pick" the Word of God, you can cherry pick the Commands of God too.

cheers,
Michael

Did I not mention clearly that I base that evaluation on the teachings of Christ's when it comes to behavior and how to treat others? as a christian.. whom am I to follow?

The Other Michael · 05-18-2003, 01:51 PM

Beats me. Do all parts of the Christian triune diety have equal rank? If so, how do you decide which one of them is right when they contradict each other?

In many patriarchal societies the Father definitely outranks a Son, so it would seem likely that you'd be safer following the commands of Yahweh who appears to be the first of the three to surface.

I've got no clue of where that Ghost thingy ranks, since I'm kind of unclear on just what job description it has.

Besides, you may not be a True Christian (TM), and everything you put forth could be disinformation.

cheers,
Michael

Sabine Grant · 05-18-2003, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Other Michael
Beats me. Do all parts of the Christian triune diety have equal rank? If so, how do you decide which one of them is right when they contradict each other?

In many patriarchal societies the Father definitely outranks a Son, so it would seem likely that you'd be safer following the commands of Yahweh who appears to be the first of the three to surface.

I've got no clue of where that Ghost thingy ranks, since I'm kind of unclear on just what job description it has.

Besides, you may not be a True Christian (TM), and everything you put forth could be disinformation.

cheers,
Michael

I usualy recieve that kind of evaluation on my personal faith from other christians.....I assume you are making a parody of what I get exposed to.

Actualy some scholars may disagree with you that the Father is the first one to appear....the use of the third person plural pronoun in parts of Genesis still tickles quite a few minds.

When I asked you whom I should follow as a christian... I really did not mean to ask you for guidance. I was pointing to the obvious content of the word " Christian". However in Aramaic or Hebrew the word was borrowed from the Romans designating the crowd who followed Christ. The word " christian " certainly did not have the meaning it has today especialy in the US.

Yaweh... ? the only definition of God I am willing to trust from the Ot is " be still and know that I Am". Does that clarify where my faith is?

Ok... my choice is to refer to Christ's teachings as I deal with the intricacity of my thoughts. I never heard a thundering voice. It would probably " freak me out" if I heard a voice in KJV style.....now that I think of it when that sudden inspiration comes to me thru my thoughts, I cannot tell you if it comes in any particular language I understand fluently. It is almost abstract. It is an urge to reconsider, to measure... it is from the domaine of being inspired rather than being told.

GeoTheo · 05-18-2003, 02:50 PM

I doubt most atheists construct a view of "Yahweh" directly from the Bible. I think their opinions come from "Debunking the Bible" websites. There are a few atheists with a more sophisticated approach, but the common sentiment is to focus on the negative passages in order to portray ancient judaism in the worst possible light. This results in an innacurate overly simplistic critique.
I think humanity in general has a brutal and violent past. It is easy to make the mistake of judging ancient peoples, like the ancient Israelites, according to todays cultural and social standards, instead of comparing their actions and beliefs to those of the surrounding peoples.
Wether one is a conservative Christian and interprets these passages in light of a belief in "progressive revelation" or "dispensationalism" or a more liberal Christian who holds to "process theology" The vast majority of Christians do not view these passages as being valid for today.

GeoTheo · 05-18-2003, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
Is this supposed to be your answer to my "How do you know if God is talking to you" question?

I really hope it's not since it makes no sense at all.

What I mean is that if I began to hear an audible voice claiming to be God and instructing me to do things, I would place the burden of proof on the entity claiming to be God. I would not blindly obey it's instructions. I also would not discount the fact that I may be imagining it. I would also be highly suspicious that God would do this since I believe the cannon of Scripture to be closed and also because I believe that there is no new revelation needed until the second coming of Christ.
Such an entity would have to satisfy my questions and pass various tests I would give it to prove it's identity. I believe that the miracles recorded in the Bible were done for similar reasons.
I do not believe that the miracles in themselves were designed to get people to believe, but rather they accompanied some new revelation and were intended to get peoples attention and assure them that the message was indeed from God.
God did many miracles through Moses before the giving of the Law and later did them through various prophets when some new revelation was being given. There were quite a few "dry periods" for example the intertestemantal period.
Then there were various miracles associated with Christ and his message.

christ-on-a-stick · 05-19-2003, 09:29 AM

Ronin said ~

Quote:

And, on the off chance that if a non-religious mother did hear voices telling her to kill her children, her symptoms would have been more readily recognizable by the non-theist who does not constantly promote the behavior of talking to imaginary sky-men and receiving messages from them as normal.

and Spaz said

Quote:

the problem here is that the religion sees hearing things from god as normal, so she didn't seek mental help. Had her environment been telling her "If you hear voices in your head you're fucking crazy" then maybe she would've sought help.

IMO that is EXACTLY the point. I think the question of someone claiming to hear an *audible* voice giving them commands as opposed to a "feeling inside" is really beside the point - what makes one more "crazy" than the other??? I'll repeat what I wrote in the other thread on this topic (since it died out...)

Quote:

Think about it. So, what if there was no fundamentalist Xianity teaching people that there are powerful invisible spirits (God, Satan etc.) that can and do communicate with humans and give them commands? Of course there would still be people who are mentally ill, schizophrenics etc., but wouldn't it be a bit easier to see that someone was mentally unstable when they spoke of "God talking to me" if we didn't have *sane* (?!) people walking around talking about the same thing and everybody thinking it's normal????

After the Andrea Yates question I asked my superfundy mother what she thought. She said that, well, of course she was mentally ill if she thought that Satan was commanding her through the television to commit certain acts. My question then was, if you do believe that God and Satan are real and are able to communicate with humans, then why do you automatically say that she was obviously mentally ill? How do you know that this "Satan" DIDN'T do that?

They want to have it both ways. They believe in this supernatural realm, believe that God really did speak to Abraham and test him by asking him to murder his son, but when people in the modern day claim "divine command" they brush it off as "insanity" because to do otherwise would be to admit how insane the concept of invisible spirits talking to us really is.

BadBadBad · 05-19-2003, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by the_cave
Persons who hear voices inside their head suffer from psychosis, regardless of their religious beliefs. Trying to blame psychotic behavior on religious belief seems to me to be bizarrely naive.

Psychosis is an unfortunate fact of human nature. There may be environmental factors, but schizophrenia, for example, appears to have at least some genetic predisposition. My point is, does anyone really think that if these mothers had not been religious, they would not have heard voices telling them to kill their children?

I certainly think that religious beliefs can be used in very unhealthy ways--for example, as an explanation for psychotic symptoms--but to my knowledge, no major Christian sect (or minor sect, that I can think of) today teaches that such voices should be seen as a sign from God. I suppose it could be the case that the people around these women were unresponsive to the clear signs of psychosis, but something in me suspects that not many people were in fact aware of what was happening, and there is no evidence in either of these cases that any religious organization was encouraging their lack of treatment.

Indeed, it seems to me that it's far more likely that someone undergoing psychosis would come to the conclusion that they were being spoken to by a god, regardless of their background, than the other way around. Isn't this obvious? People who are psychotic are in need of medical care--castigating them for their lack of reason and good sense is amazingly absurd.

Perhaps one could argue that those who suffer from psychotic illnesses should be kept away from religious writings--but shouldn't they then be kept away from all writings of a potentially disturbing nature? I mean, blaming the Bible--or religion in general--for these killings is like blaming the Wachowski brothers for John Malvo's spree some months ago (he was apparently very impressed by "The Matrix".)

The point is that who are we as mere mortals to say the God voices aren't real? Was Abraham or Moses psychotic? Perhaps it's not these people that are psychotic, but the God that drives them to this insane godly purpose. If you are a christian, you have to at least consider the possibility. Either the monstrous Christian God commits another senseless atrocity, or at least , christianity or the psychosis of those inflicted with it plays out yet another sick role in the brutal history of mankind.

BadBadBad · 05-19-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
What I mean is that if I began to hear an audible voice claiming to be God and instructing me to do things, I would place the burden of proof on the entity claiming to be God. I would not blindly obey it's instructions. I also would not discount the fact that I may be imagining it. I would also be highly suspicious that God would do this since I believe the cannon of Scripture to be closed and also because I believe that there is no new revelation needed until the second coming of Christ.
Such an entity would have to satisfy my questions and pass various tests I would give it to prove it's identity. I believe that the miracles recorded in the Bible were done for similar reasons.
I do not believe that the miracles in themselves were designed to get people to believe, but rather they accompanied some new revelation and were intended to get peoples attention and assure them that the message was indeed from God.
God did many miracles through Moses before the giving of the Law and later did them through various prophets when some new revelation was being given. There were quite a few "dry periods" for example the intertestemantal period.
Then there were various miracles associated with Christ and his message.

I can't believe it. Another godbot who's going to stand disbelieving in front of the Almighty God, limiting God to what it says in the Bible, and having the pure audacity to give him a little test. Now not only is the burden of proof on us atheists, he's putting the burden of proof on God himself.

Kind of a tuff job ya know. If confronted with God, how do you determine if he's really God, Satan, or just psychotic voices in your head when what this God wants is murder? Perhaps Moses and Abraham got it all wrong.

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05-18-2003, 12:29 PM	#31
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	It is my understanding that when my fellow christians mention that God is " talking to them" they do not mean a literal audible voice which thunders over their heads. I think more commonly you will hear expressions such as " The Spirit is leading me to ...". If I explore how I experience God's voice in my mind, I can describe it as a particular thought which places the urge in me to pay attention to it. To consider it. To meditate for a while. It usualy results in a modification of my feelings or a redirection of my choice of actions. How would I identify that thought to be from God ? because it results in a positive outcome. Certainly never in harming another individual. If any " voice " comes to my mind telling me to harm someone, I will reject it rapidly. The same process works with a situation where I am resentful and frustrated with another person. My choice of actions could then become negative towards that person. I can become defensive, offensive, agressive, impatient, angry and my actions can reflect negative responses. Usualy that " voice" brings about pacifying alternatives and always based on the example of Christs' teachings in terms of how to treat others. I usualy recieve the urge to give the benefit of the doubt for example. Or to place myself in the other person's shoes. Or examine my own actions. Of course I may still choose to dwell on my resentful attitudes or shelter in my personal pity party. The choice is always mine. And if I choose one of the latests, I usualy harvest what I have sowed.... which is the feeling of having wasted something precious.

05-18-2003, 01:51 PM	#34
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Beats me. Do all parts of the Christian triune diety have equal rank? If so, how do you decide which one of them is right when they contradict each other? In many patriarchal societies the Father definitely outranks a Son, so it would seem likely that you'd be safer following the commands of Yahweh who appears to be the first of the three to surface. I've got no clue of where that Ghost thingy ranks, since I'm kind of unclear on just what job description it has. Besides, you may not be a True Christian (TM), and everything you put forth could be disinformation. cheers, Michael

05-18-2003, 02:50 PM	#36
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	I doubt most atheists construct a view of "Yahweh" directly from the Bible. I think their opinions come from "Debunking the Bible" websites. There are a few atheists with a more sophisticated approach, but the common sentiment is to focus on the negative passages in order to portray ancient judaism in the worst possible light. This results in an innacurate overly simplistic critique. I think humanity in general has a brutal and violent past. It is easy to make the mistake of judging ancient peoples, like the ancient Israelites, according to todays cultural and social standards, instead of comparing their actions and beliefs to those of the surrounding peoples. Wether one is a conservative Christian and interprets these passages in light of a belief in "progressive revelation" or "dispensationalism" or a more liberal Christian who holds to "process theology" The vast majority of Christians do not view these passages as being valid for today.

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