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Biff:

You just don't get it do you?

Let's say there were no God. If natural circumstances were right for a drought, we could pray all we wanted to be spared from it, but it would all be for nothing. The drought would still happen.

On the other hand, if God is planning on creating a drought, we can pray to Him to be spared from it, and the drought will still happen. BUT (and this is part I think you missed), we now have strong evidence that our God exists through our answered prayer. We know that God answered us with a "No." Hallelujah!

Aint God miraculous? What other god has so much power?

Biff the unclean

Good afternoon Sir, may I be of any assistance?

Umm, er, why yes…yes you can. I'd, er, I'd like to return this God please.

Of course Sir. Were there any difficulties with this particular God.

Uhh, yeah…yes. He was very difficult to invoke. And when you did invoke him he just didn't stay invoked.

I see Sir…

I read the instruction manual but his ways are just too mysterious and not user friendly at all.

Perhaps I might interest you in an exchange?

Well, I dunno. Do you have any that honor intelligence and self reliance?

MrDarwin

Clearly it wasn't in line with Jesus's character to help Lesley Ann Downey when she needed it. It was apparently Jesus's will that she be tortured, sexually abused, and finally murdered:

Or maybe Jesus was just miffed because Lesley Ann called out for her mum first?

JEST2ASK

Did the Father and the Pastor act as "good" Christians?
Should they have had Faith that God would protect them?
Should they have believed that a prayer of intercession was within God's will?

James 5:13 - 16
Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. (14) Is anyone among you sick? Let them call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over you, annoting you with oil in the name of the Lord, (15) and the prayer of faith will save the sick, and The lord will raise them up. And if they have committed sins, they will be forgiven.
(16) Confess your trepass to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. *** The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.


Sorry but what makes you think your interpretation of scripture, was better than the understanding of Mr Mok or Pastor Loh?

Why speak of Hope or having Faith? What do you base your insight on concerning God and his mysterious ways / plans?

Oh and concerning drought .... James 5:17-18 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
And he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.


So how about being consistent .... yes prayer is about communion with God but it also seems obvious that it is also about invoking the will of God (if you wish) to work through you (for his glory).


Sorry about the counter "Rant" but the gyrations some people go through to (IMO) avoid really honestly questioning themselves, the validity of their "Holy" book and their beliefs.

MrDarwin

Strange, Christians always seem to fall silent when I mention Lesley Ann Downey...

spurly

Mr. Darwin:

I am not here to defend God. But I know this, we don't live in paradise anymore. We lost that a long time ago when the first sin entered the world.

Since then we live in a world that is fallen and a world that suffers from the poison of sin. The evil that you see does not mean that God does not exist. Evil happens because this is not Paradise.

As a matter of fact, the very existence of evil proves the existence of God. How would we know what evil was unless there was an absolute standard of good that had been built into creation from the very beginning.

Each of us knows what that is, because we have been created in the image of God. However we have problems down here because that image of God is marred by sin.

Does it seem that sometimes God is absent? Yes. Is he? No. On 9-11 he was in the towers and in the pentagon comforting people as they called on him.

Why didn't he stop it? Because he has chosen to give mankind freedom of choice. If he constantly stopped evil, that would take away any freedom of choice that we may have. It would also make people believe in him by default instead of accepting him by faith because they want to have a relationship with him based on love, which he created us for.

Kevin

edited to add: Possibly he loves the people who do evil just as much as he loves the victims of evil and he wants to give them every chance to repent instead of just wiping them out when they commit an atrocity.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by spurly
Possibly he loves the people who do evil just as much as he loves the victims of evil

I can't imagine anyone loving a molested and murdered child as much as they love the person who molested and murdered that child. The concept is stupefying in its unrealism and disgust-generating potential.

But to follow it up to its logical conclusion, perhaps god should love the people who do evil much more than he loves the victims of evil. If the victims of evil are, for example, small children, they may very well go to heaven, so why worry about them? The people who do evil, on the other hand, are the truly sad ones who might go to hell, so they deserve god's love and consideration so much more than their victims do.

and he wants to give them every chance to repent instead of just wiping them out when they commit an atrocity.

This is very gracious of him. Instead of punishing someone who has just raped and dismembered a child ("commit an atrocity" takes the victim right out of the picture, so I'd prefer not to use this euphemism), God gives them one more chance. Of course, they may very well use this chance to mutilate and murder another child, but hey, no one can say that God didn't give them a chance to repent.

Strangely, God didn't seem to have this mentality in the Old Testament, where he states, for example, that a man raping a betrothed woman in the countryside should be put to death. Shouldn't he tell the Israelites to give this man every chance to repent?

The Other Michael

.

Hello Kevin,

As an aside, if you do a search in MF&P on "absolute standard good" you'll find about 26 different threads returned from the search.

And if you look in the old MF&P archives you'll no doubt find many more.

You might find it educational to research some of the discussion/thought relative to your statement above.

cheers,
Michael

lpetrich

spurly:
Since then we live in a world that is fallen and a world that suffers from the poison of sin.

Should I have to repeat my analogy about hitting someone with your car and then claiming that you had not done anything wrong because you had not tried to aim your car at your victim?

As a matter of fact, the very existence of evil proves the existence of God.

However, we could not survive unless we liked certain things and disliked certain other things. So this could be the result of evolution.

Each of us knows what that is, because we have been created in the image of God.

That, to me, is childish anthropomorphism, something which Xenophanes had so effectively burlesqued 2500 years ago.

However we have problems down here because that image of God is marred by sin.

Then god must be a big fat sinner.

Does it seem that sometimes God is absent? Yes. Is he? No. On 9-11 he was in the towers and in the pentagon comforting people as they called on him.

But NOT rescuing them. Why don't Bible-style miracles happen anymore?

Also, I note that those who survived were those who tried to escape, as opposed to sitting around and praying for miraculous deliverance.

Why didn't he stop it? Because he has chosen to give mankind freedom of choice.

Bullshit. JC had taught that one ought to remove body parts that make one commit sins, so if free will makes one commit sins, then get rid of it.

If he constantly stopped evil, that would take away any freedom of choice that we may have.

F*** "freedom of choice"!!!

Do you give a little kid a loaded gun and refuse to stop him from shooting anyone on the ground that doing so would interfere with his free will???

It would also make people believe in him by default instead of accepting him by faith because they want to have a relationship with him based on love, which he created us for.

Again, bullshit. If you went on a long trip and you discovered on an online bboard that your family and friends were suspecting that you were dead, wouldn't you want to reveal yourself to them and assure them that you were still alive?

Possibly he loves the people who do evil just as much as he loves the victims of evil and he wants to give them every chance to repent instead of just wiping them out when they commit an atrocity.

Yet again, bullshit. The 9/11 kamikaze hijackers died as a result of their actions, so they did not have much chance to repent before their deaths.

And they were convinced Muslims, down to believing that they would get harems of lovely ladies in the next world, so they would have been tough nuts to crack.

Debbie T

I understand it completely. It says in Matthew 7:8
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

When I was a child and prayed to Jesus to help me when my father abused me, I never received any answer. Not a yes or a no. No comfort, no nothing and the abuse continued. Yet the bible says, "Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. " It says whosoever shall call , no exceptions.

But then maybe this is what happened Lamentations3:44 Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through. So maybe he blocked out my prayer and that is why he didn't answer. Or perhaps I didn't ask sincerely enough as a young child "please Jesus make daddy stop" just wasn't good enough.

James 4:3
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Maybe someone else knew I was being abused and they prayed.

Jeremiah
7:16
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

11:14
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

Or perhaps God was having me suffer for the sins of my father. Like David's baby had to die for his father's sin.

All in all it looks like according to the bible that God blocks some prayers and doesn't listen to all prayers. And contradicts itself when it says whatever you ask for you will receive it.




Maybe that was it , God thought I was asking for something selfish. How selfish of me to ask Jesus to not let my daddy come into my room in the middle of the night.

Oh maybe I didn't say the prayer quite in the right way. Dear Jesus, Please make Daddy stop, In Jesus name , amen. Or perhaps stopping child abuse isn't in line with his character or will.

Yes I know shame on me for thinking that way. What was I thinking when I was 7 years old and what a selfish brat to want to not have daddy fondle me in the middle of the night and deny him his pleasure. Yes that has to be it wasn't daddy a good Christian man a pillar in the church and I was just a lowly child full of sin and not worth a pot to pee in.

Oh yes and sorry for the rant, I try not to get too upset when Christians assume that people just prayed for a shiny new red corvette in their driveway.