tronvillain

Gurdur:
While focusing exclusively on technique over emotion would probably be a problem, I am not convinced it is a widespread problem. As I said, as far as I can tell people should be focusing more on technique, not less (though not at the expense of emotion).

Well, I would have to see the ad to give a detailed opinion, but whether or not I actually enjoy the ad I do not think they should have been prevented from making or showing it. Where would I set the limits? I am not sure I would set any that do not already exist.

I do not "abdicate social responsibility", I simply disagree with you about what is socially responsible.

Harumi

Well, I wasn't exactly thinking of that. (See what I mean by the fact that I'm not very bright?) I don't intend to leave my boyfriend, and he's my first, that's for sure! No, I was more thinking along the lines of my mother. If she wasn't so young and naive, and not quite so stubborn--you see, she was already getting this feeling that my father wouldn't be the best of people, but she thought that she could "change" him--she might be in a happier marriage right now.

The fact that she didn't know exactly what goes on or what she wants is the problem. And I think more experience in other relationships could have helped.

luvluv

Lady Shea:

I'm certain we can all make the distinction between doing a job while in emotional pain and doing a job that causes emotional pain.

With all due respect, Shea, the attitudes displayed in your comments above are hardly distinguishable from that of a pimp.

Do you think it's is morally acceptable to manipulate people in desperate circumstances for your own gratification even if it is to their destruction? As the special reported, many of these young women are new in town, are desperate for money, are barely 18, and many of them have backgrounds involving sexual abuse. One of the ex porn-stars made the specific point that vulnerable, emotionally unstable, financially desperate girls are precisely the type of people that the porn producers look for.

These girls (mostly) are consenting to do these acts often out of severe emotional problems and desperate financial situations, and quite often they aren't informed as to the extent of what they will be required to do on the set. The producers manipulate their fragile emotional state and financial distress to their advantage once these girls are on the set and pressure them to go beyond their boundaries.

It is just flat out wrong to manipulate desperate people, ESPECIALLY if you are manipulating them into even more desperate circumstances, all for your own gratification.

Beyond that, I still consider it immoral to gratify oneself with another person's self-destruction. Even if a person has made a free decision to become a coke-head, that still doesn't make it okay for me to sell him the cocaine. I am talking about the moral obligation of the consumer of porn (and frankly the comment was directed at the men on this board who would use the pornograpy, none of whom have directly answered).

I am operating under the assumption that all of us would consider it to be immoral to manipulate someone in desperate circumstances for our own selfish benefit. Are we agreed on at least that much? Further, I think it is even more immoral when our manipulative action will have potentially devestating emotional consequences on the person. The young lady featured in the special attempted suicide on several occassions. She was in tears after several of the more rough sex scenes. She had a nervous breakdown after being pressured into a group sex scence involving (I believe) 7 men, when she had no knowledge prior to coming onto the set (a real, functioning prison, btw) that anything so extreme would be expected of her.

So I am repeating this question to those of you who feel that there is nothing wrong with pornography, particularly the men. Knowing the pain caused to this girl by these scenes, and knowing the desperate emotional and financial pressures which made her vulnerable to accepting to do these scenes, would you consider it morally justifiable to masterbate to them?

If so, how far can we take this principle? Would it be moral, in my real life, to find some financially desperate 18 year old, a runaway perhaps, one who was sexually and physically abused, and who as a result of running away is in desperate financial and emotional straights... would it be okay to pressure her emotionally and financially to have sleep with me? If I played on her insecurities by calling her a worthless slut and telling her how no one else would want her, and told her that if she did it I would keep her financially stable and if she didn't she would be out on the street.... would you consider that moral? Would everything short of physically forcing her to have sex to pressure her into having sex be fine with you?

Frankly, I do not see the difference between the above scenario and the scenario involving how a lot of porn producers operate. And the only difference in being a simple consumer of pornography is that you are one step removed from the process. But that doesn't change the fact that your are FINANCING the manipulation of young, vulnerable women in the most desperate moments of their lives.

So I'm holding out for an answer, and... (adopts my best Adlai Stevenson)... I am prepared to wait for my answer until hell freezes over.

christ-on-a-stick

Come again? How on earth do you make that connection?
I don't think that will be necessary, luv. I for one will jump back in to address this last post when I have a good chunk of time.... the indepth dialogue is fairly new to me but I am quite interested in addressing this.

Til then, then.

Viti

luvluv...whatever...you have proven to me time and again that it is worthless to discuss anything with you.

Gurdur

I wonder, luvluv, have you actually really known any pimps ?

Because you've made a stunningly inaccurate accusation against LadyShea, and all you're doing is descending to vicious and wrong personal abuse instead of having any argument at all.

Your supposed concern on young teenage women in trouble seems also more based on rhetoric than on facts; have you in fact any genuine experience or knowledge of the situation at all ?

Viti

Hey Gurdur...just for reference I personally know 2 porn actresses in real life, and now am happy to have gotten to know christ-on-a-stick rather well. None of them fit luvluv's portrayal of weak emotional wrecks, so I base my opinions on those people.

How that makes me a pimp I will never understand.

luvluv

Gurdur:

Quite a few, actually. No professionals (as in full time) on a first name basis, but by reputation.

I have a few friends who have, in their younger days, ocassionally made some spare change by getting some of their female companions to turn a few tricks. I've always thought it was kind of low. I had, and still have, friends in every level of life mostly as a result of growing up where I did. And I know that indifference to the emotional and physical well-being of instable, desperate young ladies is a pre-requisite for pimping.

I apologize and I'll take it back if everyone thinks it is so bothersome. It was meant to be blunt and discomfiting to prove a point. The type of indifference to these young women that she is describing is precisely the attitude of a pimp. I've seen it repeatedly over the years. In all honesty I didn't think it was so harsh as to promote the kind of reaction it has gotten, but I will stand by it because I believe it is absolutely accurate. I don't think Lady Shea is actually like that, I knew she would be offended by the association, and that is why I made it. I do not think Shea ACTUALLY HAS the attitude towards these young women that she is claiming to have, which is why I am trying to manuever her into seeing that by drawing the parallel. Frankly, I don't think most of the people supporting porn on a fundamental level believe some of the things they say they believe (I seriously doubt, for instance, whether any of these people would actually be happy about their 18 year old daughter being involved in a money shot. I'm sorry to be graphic, but I think we are making porn into something sweet and acceptable that it is not, and I want you all to consider, on the most graphic and accurate grounds possible, what you are actually claiming to support.)

I know plenty of girls involved in the sex industry. Stripping was quite a popular means of support for many girls at my college. I don't know any porn stars but I do know a lot of girls involved in prostitution.

I don't want anyone to be offended by that one remark to the extent that they miss the rest of the argument. I don't think it is inaccurate at all, I think the attitude that her comment displayed is precisely that of a pimp ("Hey, I didn't put a gun to her head. If she is screwed up that's her problem."). If she is bothered by that association, then I think that that would be ample proof that she, at bottom, DOES NOT think like a pimp... as I'm fairly sure she does not... and so should see why such an argument as the one she presented is pretty abhorent.

I don't want to or like to make enemies, and I'm not a big fan of hurling insults. I want to make CRYSTAL CLEAR that I am no saint where pornography is concerned, and that I at this date still would not say it is a safe bet to say that I have watched it for the last time. It is, to a certain extent, like being an alchoholic. I don't know what I would do if I allowed myself to be put in a situation where I had easy, immediate access to porn. At some point, I would probably break, which is why I do my darndest not to let that ever happen. I am not claiming any moral superiority to Lady Shea or anyone here. In those times in which I have viewed porn, I was probably no better than a pimp myself, in that I had no problem with or consideration of whatever damage participating in pornography had on it's participants. I am probably, without exagerattion, tens of thousands of times more guilty of this than Lady Shea. But yet and still I openly condemn the attitude which says that girls in such desperate situations are making "free" decisions, and so therefore we have no obligation to consider the damage they are doing to themselves. Can anyone deny that this is the attitude of a pimp? It might be offensive but I don't see any way that it is innacurate. Again, I do not think Lady Shea actually feels this way but this is how she is representing herself.

If there is a distinction between the attitude that she represented in the comment I quoted in my above post and that of a pimp, I'd like to see someone demonstrate that.

Gurdur

So join the club, matey, and so the bloody what ?
None of this justifies your false accusation against LadyShea.
I think you damn well should.
I'll tell you why:
I myself am concerned about society and societies (as a glance back through this thread will tell you).
However, how the hell will making rhetorical and absurd accusations as personal abuse help ?

Bullshit.
A pimp is hardly indifferent: a pimp sees just another potential working girl to be used or discarded.

LadyShea knows people from the legal side of things, and as she's pointed out, they themselves are not fucked up or overly vulnerable.
And LadyShea has agreed with myself as to the illegal industry (see previous posts); which means, matey, your accusation is completely off-the-wall.

luvluv

Lady Shea:

That's three people out of ten thousand. Ask your friends if they know anyone in the industry who is an emotional wreck. I'm sure c.o.a.s. might have met a few as well.

I'm trying to be very careful to base what I am saying on the special that was shown, and on the testimony of actual porn stars from that special. That was the reason for me calling everyone's attention to the special beforehand so we could hear it from the horses mouth. The ex-porn stars themselves were the ones saying that the producers seek out young, emotionally damaged, unassertive, financially desperate young women for their films, and that the producers often pressure these girls on the set into going beyond what they were initially told they would do. They were the ones who said that these girls were barely over 18, and weren't really in a position to make good judgements for all of the above reasons. I referenced the show SPECIFICALLY so that I would not be accused of just pulling these arguments out of my head.

I readily concede that not EVERYONE in porn fits the above description, but that doesn't change the fact that a great deal of them are, and it doesn't change the fact that if a person is a regular consumer of porn over the course of a lifetime he will have seen, and probably masterbated to, SCORES of young girls who fit this description to a tee. So, in my estimation, the fact that one cannot effectively discern the emotionally stable girls from those pressured into pornography by desperate circumstances, makes it very clear that attempting a defense of the moral propriety of watching porn is an uphill battle. If there is anyone in this discussion who is prepared to make a case for the morality of masterbating to the images of women in these circumstances, I'm ready to hear them.

Didn't say you were a pimp. Said that your attitude is basically indistinguishable from that of a pimp regarding respecting the well-being in women involved in the hardcore pornography industry.