Freethought & Rationalism Archive

10-06-2002, 07:37 PM

Does anybody know where I can find stuff that debunks that whole miraculous gold filling stuff that is taking pace in christian churches (or similar miracles)?

Thanks,
Kevin

Oolon Colluphid · 10-07-2002, 06:01 AM

Oddly enough, though I�m sure I�ve read stuff online about it, I can�t spot anything substantial now. Sorry!

However, there�s a simple way to think about it. I follow Nicholas Humphrey�s line in Soul Searching: such hypotheses are over-designed, having too much design of the wrong kind. The explanatory hypothesis raises more questions than it answers, and requires ad hoc hypotheses to explain those.

Often too there are unanticipated limitations on the power used to explain the phenomenon. If Uri Geller�s powers, for instance, were really mind over matter rather than muscle over metal, he should be able to bend not just spoons but also pound coins; he should not be limited to the sorts of tricks stage magicians can also do.

This approach lets us reject a hypothesis as not fitting the evidence, even if it leaves us with a �don�t know� in its place. We don�t have to have a replacement answer to see than the offered one doesn�t work.

Here, the hypothesis is that god can do miracles, he can do whatever he likes. What might we plausibly, reasonably expect such an entity to do, if it involved dentistry? Would it turn amalgam into gold? No, it would simply replace the filling with fresh dentine and enamel.

This is typical of many �miracles�, such as the Lourdes �healing� of young Delizia Cirolli�s leg... that left her with a limp which required several subsequent surgeries to correct.

God, IOW, does a half-arsed job of it... which is not in keeping with the powers usually claimed for him.

Dental alchemy isn�t just improbable per se (and AFAIK, it�s very far from being a properly documented genuine phenomenon even); it is, from the point of view of an omnipotent deity, just plain weird. Whatever the explanation of this (alleged) phenomenon, god ain�t it.

Cheers, Oolon

theyeti · 10-07-2002, 01:23 PM

Why doesn't God just give them new teeth? Surely that would be more useful than changing the material that one's fillings are made of.

BTW, this "phenomenon" first appeared in less developed countries where people didn't have access to adequate dental care. The fact that it's been imported here, where it makes no sense whatsoever, just goes to show how these things are culturally driven. Kind of like how the type of UFO you see depends on where you're from.

theyeti

Viti · 10-07-2002, 01:32 PM

I found a ton of stuff online about it, and there has been at least on ethread on the subject (Search thread titles for "gold miracle" or something similar)

If you pop "Gold filling miracles" into Google you'll find a bunch...much of it debunking by OTHER xians. This is part of the Toronto Miracle Movement (Rodney Brown the laughing preacher). Most other xian denoms feel these are hoaxes or even demonic manifestations. Secularists have found that mny people simply lied...dental records indicate gold fillings well before the supposed miracles.

You may want to research the "gold dust" miracles as well...the people start having gold dust fall out of their hair....lab tests show it is plastic glitter, but many still claim a miracle!

theyeti · 10-07-2002, 02:11 PM

Yeah, I've found the same thing. Long story short, there's just no evidence that anyone has had their fillings changed to gold, at least not by any supernatural process. There have been some evangelists who have vigorously promoted such claims who later have had to appologize for, well, lying. From <a href="http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/d04.html#fading" target="_blank">this site</a>:

Quote:

A chastened Willard Thiessen, host of a daily religion program on Winnipeg television, admitted yesterday he was wrong in telling his tele-flock that God had inexplicably planted a gold tooth in his mouth.

It turned out the gold tooth had been implanted by his brother Elmer, a dentist in British Columbia. (...)

Dick Dewert, a religious broadcaster in Lethbridge, Alta., told a CJIL-TV audience during an on-air fundraising marathon in March that God had implanted a gold tooth in his mouth after a bout of intensive prayer.

But Dr. Jack Sherman, Mr. Dewert's longtime dentist, said he had put it in about 10 years earlier.

[...]

Here at the Family Christian Center, Pastor Rich Oliver draws back his lip and displays a glittering gold crown he says God gave him in March. Actually, dental records show his previous dentist put the crown in on April 29, 1991. When confronted with those records, Oliver says: "I'd have to say I was absolutely wrong . . . [but] none of it distracts from the fact that I know God is a healer."

Nonetheless, Oliver touts his congregation's 'gold rush' on the Internet and lines up other church members to witness about how God changed their teeth--and lives.

In other cases, dentists confirm that the fillings are the same as they were when they were put in. AFAIK, there are no credible accounts of anyone's fillings having been changed. It's just another case of a bunch of gullible people being deluded into seeing what they want to see. Nothing to see here folks, move along...

A similar phenomenon of "gold dust" leaking from believers' heads was likewise debunked when someone took the dust in for analysis, and found that it was plastic glitter. The Lord works in mysterious ways...

I think it's telling that most of the sites debunking this nonsense are Christian sites. They find it opens their faith to ridicule, and it cheapens their idea of God. I suspect that most skeptics organizations find it too silly to bother with.

theyeti

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: theyeti ]</p>

MortalWombat · 10-08-2002, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:
<strong>Most other xian denoms feel these are hoaxes...</strong>

It's amusing how some Christians can compartmentalize their skepticism.

10-06-2002, 07:37 PM	#1
TheDiddleyMan Guest Posts: n/a	gold fillings Does anybody know where I can find stuff that debunks that whole miraculous gold filling stuff that is taking pace in christian churches (or similar miracles)? Thanks, Kevin

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10-07-2002, 06:01 AM	#2
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Oddly enough, though I�m sure I�ve read stuff online about it, I can�t spot anything substantial now. Sorry! However, there�s a simple way to think about it. I follow Nicholas Humphrey�s line in Soul Searching: such hypotheses are over-designed, having too much design of the wrong kind. The explanatory hypothesis raises more questions than it answers, and requires ad hoc hypotheses to explain those. Often too there are unanticipated limitations on the power used to explain the phenomenon. If Uri Geller�s powers, for instance, were really mind over matter rather than muscle over metal, he should be able to bend not just spoons but also pound coins; he should not be limited to the sorts of tricks stage magicians can also do. This approach lets us reject a hypothesis as not fitting the evidence, even if it leaves us with a �don�t know� in its place. We don�t have to have a replacement answer to see than the offered one doesn�t work. Here, the hypothesis is that god can do miracles, he can do whatever he likes. What might we plausibly, reasonably expect such an entity to do, if it involved dentistry? Would it turn amalgam into gold? No, it would simply replace the filling with fresh dentine and enamel. This is typical of many �miracles�, such as the Lourdes �healing� of young Delizia Cirolli�s leg... that left her with a limp which required several subsequent surgeries to correct. God, IOW, does a half-arsed job of it... which is not in keeping with the powers usually claimed for him. Dental alchemy isn�t just improbable per se (and AFAIK, it�s very far from being a properly documented genuine phenomenon even); it is, from the point of view of an omnipotent deity, just plain weird. Whatever the explanation of this (alleged) phenomenon, god ain�t it. Cheers, Oolon

10-07-2002, 01:23 PM	#3
theyeti Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Denver, CO, USA Posts: 9,747	Why doesn't God just give them new teeth? Surely that would be more useful than changing the material that one's fillings are made of. BTW, this "phenomenon" first appeared in less developed countries where people didn't have access to adequate dental care. The fact that it's been imported here, where it makes no sense whatsoever, just goes to show how these things are culturally driven. Kind of like how the type of UFO you see depends on where you're from. theyeti

10-07-2002, 01:32 PM	#4
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	I found a ton of stuff online about it, and there has been at least on ethread on the subject (Search thread titles for "gold miracle" or something similar) If you pop "Gold filling miracles" into Google you'll find a bunch...much of it debunking by OTHER xians. This is part of the Toronto Miracle Movement (Rodney Brown the laughing preacher). Most other xian denoms feel these are hoaxes or even demonic manifestations. Secularists have found that mny people simply lied...dental records indicate gold fillings well before the supposed miracles. You may want to research the "gold dust" miracles as well...the people start having gold dust fall out of their hair....lab tests show it is plastic glitter, but many still claim a miracle!

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