The AntiChris

To be fair to Helen, I think she was suggesting that this is the the way some Christians think - she wasn't saying this was her view. You seem to steadfastly refuse to acknowledge this crucial point.

However, the question remains - why would Helen post on a forum dedicated to the views of the argumentative and self-opinionated, and be so coy about airing her own opinions?

Chris

HelenM

Originally posted by free12thinker:

I'm not the Spanish Inquisition

Ok, ok, I admit it...you aren't

, but when you post a reply to a topic on a debate forum, you should at least be able to back-up your statement.

I 'should', huh? Sounds like an opinion to me. I try not to impose my own 'shoulds' on other people...with all due respect.

Anyway, as Chris and Diana noticed but you evidently didn't, it wasn't 'my statement'.

Your statement was that what god says goes. I asked you why you believe this to be a valid point, now you're claiming that you're not sure what you believe.

Why did you think I believed it though? I never said I did! You didn't read it carefully...

It's just very strange to me, that someone who frequents a debate forum as you do, and has opinions on so many things as you do, would limit their defense to, "Well, I'm not so sure myself anyway". (Not your exact words, but a synopsis nonetheless).

I have much stronger opinions about some things than others; I am more willing to state my opinions on some things than others. Is that really strange or unusual, as a human trait?

I am fine with your final word that maybe you're not so sure.

<PHEW>

I might have been lying though

My answers certainly aren't absolute (no ones are for that matter), but what I say comes from me, and has some logic and reason behind them.

I find that most people are more irrational than they credit themselves with being. At least I admit I am irrational...

That's why I don't/can't always answer.

Take care though.


Yeah, you too. I think very highly of logic and reason and I do actually use them as much as I can.

I've said this before...actually not quite this way...what I've found is that they don't always work very well in a world where people can be extremely irrational.

Wait till you've been in a psych unit and everyone around you is acting irrationally but they all think you're the only one . It changes how you look at life...

Now watch...someone may well jump on me for mentioning my MHD again...although I don't see how they could claim I'm using it as an excuse.

Ok, just for you: "Is homosexuality immoral"? Firstly, in my posts in Misc Discussion I separated 'homosexuality' from 'homosexual behavior'.

Then, my letter to the editor said/implied, I hope, that I can't see how one can argue homosexual behavior is immoral except by appeal to the Bible, and an assumption the Bible is authoritative. See, I know you can't easily 'reason' that it is.

People who think the Bible is inerrant and authoritative are going to be convinced that it's immoral. It's not necessarily that they don't think - it's that they see no point in thinking outside what they are convinced of. I suppose you could say that trying to reason one's way out of the inerrancy and authority of the Bible, would be immoral, to them. Why would they? But questions aren't immoral. I'm talking about targeted attempts to undermine belief in the Bible. Sincere questions...reasonable Christians don't try to suppress them in my experience.

So really it comes down to do I believe in Biblical authority and inerrancy, because the answer to that determines whether I believe homosexual behavior is 'immoral'. And that's the question on which I'm not sure.

love
Helen

HelenM

Chris you're exactly right and I appreciate you reading carefully enough to notice that I was stating the way some Christians approach the question "Is [homosexual behavior] immoral?"

Sometimes I am as opinionated as the best of them.

Depends on the topic

love
Helen

seebs

As a secondary issue, there's reasonable room for doubt as to whether that's actually what the Bible said to begin with. At least one of the major groups of Jewish churches has annotated the old stuff in Leviticus with a comment that this "may refer to a specific temple practice, and not be a barrier to same-sex unions" or something to that effect.

For people who would like to see how one Christian came to believe that the Bible does not, in fact, overtly condemn homosexuality, I recommend:

<a href="http://www.reluctantjourney.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.reluctantjourney.co.uk/</a>

I spent a couple of weeks arguing this on both sides, and eventually came to the conclusion that I simply don't have enough information to form a committed opinion on the issue. In any event, I think it's clear that the reason that most people who object to gays complain so loudly is that sex you aren't interested in generally sounds pretty gross. I suspect it has very little to do with any kind of moral standard.

One of the most fundamental arguments I see is this; throughout the rest of Christian morality, you can get by on two commandments, and everything else appears to follow from them logically. I am resistant to the idea that, among the tens of thousands of things someone could describe that could plausibly be called "sinful", exactly *ONE* cannot be obviously shown to be a failure to love God, or a failure to love your neighbor. (Unless you say "but it's sinful, therefore, it's incompatible with loving God" - but that's begging the question, and we try to keep that to a minimum.)

seebs

That depends; sometimes, it's useful to the debate to offer an opinion, without being able to support it, because it may lead other participants to suggest support or refutations.