Biff the unclean

Keith I can't help but notice that you went to all the trouble to find a non Theist web site, register, then find the section where morals are discussed, post over four hundred messages and then complain that Atheists talk to you.

I have to agree 100% with Fyfe.
Tell me...would it be "wrong" for Christians (or for theists) to provide a continuing threat to the safety and well being of individuals--and to society?
Yes, it is wrong. It shows a lack of moral values. But since you haven't a clue as to what morals or Atheists are that statement is probably meaningless to you.
:banghead:

Pain Paien

It's mostly because I find your pathetic tergiversations and justifications amusing. Watching the illogical contortions you make in order to "rationalize" your ridiculous faith has been quite enjoyable. In addition, observing your idiocy has been an opportunity to give my own thinking sharper resolve. This is also in part because of the intelligent and well thought out posts of those who actually came to this thread to argue issues, not strawmen.

Now, I'm saying this not to be insulting, as insults are reserved for conscious beings, and not risible parrots, but merely for further entertainment.

Cipher Girl

Well, I spent a little time skimming this thread. It seems that for every simple question asked of Keith, he spins a completely unrelated answer. For simple questions we get tons of BS and verbal gymnastics, but not one simple answer back. Rather revealing of his philosophy, isn't it? Not one simple answer back, even to concede a point or to ask for further clarification of something he does not understand. He seems to be completely oblivious to the possibility that he could be wrong on something.

He writing screams "I have all of the answers, I am always right, you people are so wrong." Is it any wonder we fail to take someone like this seriously?

Pain Paien

Keep it at that. It says everything that needs to be said.

Mageth

Hmm...oh, I get it; you're posting examples to illustrate that your apparent claim (#3) that all humans agree on what is or isn't morally right is incorrect. No, wait, you're posting examples to illustrate that your claim (#2) that humans have never been in agreement on what is "good" for society, or for the world is correct. Gotcha. It's just that your moral system is so damn confusing and contradictory.

In any case, thanks for providing several examples of cases where the Bible (and, according to you, the stuff written on our body's blood pump) is of absolutely no use in forming any kind of objective moral standards. Our only hope in solving those problems is by reaching some kind of consensus. Last time I checked, that's why we had a representative form of Government, with elections, in the U.S.

Mageth

I'm only using insulting words here to highlight the obvious conflict between what "atheists" say they lack belief in, and how much they CARE about the whole God topic.

When people start posting things like you have, claiming their particular god is the only source of morality, and that morality boils down to "If god says to do it, it's moral; if god says not to do it, it's immoral", and that their god can and did tell people to commit genocide, kill rebellious children and homosexuals, and do all other sorts of horrific acts without those acts being immoral just because their god said so, of course I and other atheists (and, actually, many theists) care. It's exactly that "moral" outlook that's given us the 9/11 terrorists, abortion clinic bombers, the Spanish Inquisition, baby-drowning mothers, slavery-justifiers, and all sorts of other wonderful examples of religious morality taken to that extreme. Your moral standard honestly scares the living shit out of me, and I'll stand up against such an inhumane system at every opportunity I get.

They are obsessed by God--yet they want everyone to think that they lack belief in God.

And you, Keith, want everyone to think that you believe in God, but you really don't. You're obsessed by atheism. You just say you believe in God, but obviously you don't; you're an atheist at heart. That's why you talk about atheists so much, why you're so obsessed with them, why you're spending time here arguing the God concept with atheists; it's because you don't really believe in god and are trying to fool yourself and others into thinking you really do.

Now, do you think that argument accurately describes you? How does it make you feel for someone else to tell you what you really believe or don't believe? It sucks, doesn't it? So knock off with your Atheist mind-reading tricks; it was a stupid, ignorant, unsubstantiated, and useless argument the first time you made it, and it still is in its ad nauseum use.

I personally don't care what people think, and have no interest in fooling anyone. Why in gog's name would I want to fool anyone into thinking I'm an atheist when I'm not?

I know I lack belief in god(s), and I most certainly am not obsessed by god, and am not trying to fool myself or anyone else. In fact, on this thread and on this forum in general, neither I nor any other atheists has addressed the imaginary old man; we've addressed those who believe in him (they and their beliefs are the ones that concern us, not their imaginary friend), the arguments they use to try to defend their imaginary friend, the actions they try to justify in the name of their imaginary friend, and the morals and laws that they try to force upon everyone in the name of their imaginary friend.

Queen of Swords

It's not so much anticipation as paraphrasing responses I've seen from theists.

It depends on what the immature people are doing. If they're keeping their silliness to themselves, that's one thing. If they're spreading it over a thread or a forum, that's another.

Alonzo Fyfe

Of course it would.

However, just as it is possible to believe in leprechauns without being a danger to others, Christians and other theists need not be a threat to others. So, this is not to be taken as an attack on all Christians or theists. It only condemns those who take their belief in God to an extreme whereby they think they have a right or duty to take actions which put at risk the life, health, liberty, and well being of their neighbors.

To the degree that Christians and other theists adopt a policy of living at peace with others, to that degree there is little reason to be concerned with what they say and do.

Treacle Worshipper

Originally posted by Keith
Does God have a duty to justify His actions to you? Why?

I can't believe I'm still reading this thread, and I really can't believe I'm about to post, but I want to address this.

Keith, I'm about to make some assumptions about your God. I'm sure you'll correct me if I get them wrong

Presumably, you think your God is loving and that he wants people to be saved.
Presumably you also think that he is omniscient.
(These are 2 fairly consistent beliefs among Christians.)

If this is so, then your God knows that I have serious problems with certain actions he is reported to have taken. I find them abhorrent. He presumably wants to save me, and he knows that I need a convincing explanation of these actions before I'll consider submitting to him.

Therefore, if he wants to save me, he knows he has to justify these actions.

An analogy:

Someone tackles me from behind while I am crossing the road, throwing me across to the pavement and breaking my arm.

In the first case, they walk past and ignore me. I have them arrested for assault and probably sue them as well.

In the second case, they say, "You were going to be run over by that car, and I had to get you out of the way in time." I thank them profusely, and give them some sort of reward.

Your God is in the position of the first person, who has given no explanation for his actions. He, too, might have a good reason for what he did, but until he lets me know what the good reason is, I'm going to think there isn't one.

If he existed, of course.

TW

Keith

The sad thing is that because you feel that only your standard for what constitutes a convincing explanation is acceptable, and you have assumed that God owes you an explanation, you can't get what you say you want. How can a person claiming to be autonomous (in effect claiming one's self to be a god) ever really get to know God? It is impossible for God to change His own nature and bow to your demands.

If God regenerates your soul causing you to become willing to believe in Him and trust in Him, it will be because of God's mercy on you. God can't fail to save even one of His elect, and grace can neither be demanded by man or owed by God.