Freethought & Rationalism Archive

theIPU · 03-19-2003, 06:52 PM

Ok, let's all just assume the god in the bible exists and there is satan and all that other stuff (for the sake of argument)

1. If you worship satan he will reward you
2. You will have fun in hell forever
3. Hell is seperation from god (according to my catholic fundy teacher) so god can't do anything to you

Sorta like a pascal's wager for satanists

Infidelettante · 03-19-2003, 07:05 PM

Stand back! Here come the theists...rumble-rumble-rumble

Fiach · 03-19-2003, 10:14 PM

I think that there is a certain attraction to Lucifer. He presumably knew that he could not defeat God. He knew he would suffer for rebelling.

But he tried his best. He fought God's more powerful army in a lost cause. He showed courage, principle, and pride (a good virtue in my opinion). He became secretly admired by Jews and Christians who would never admit it.

We all admire the tragic hero of the lost cause. We recognise William the Conqueror for his victory and cruelty. But many think of Harold of the Saxons as the tragic hero, fighting and dying in a lost cause. He had just fought the Scandinavians. He and his army was exhausted and walking wounded infantry, but he and his Saxon heroes stood their ground against Williams armoured Knights and came close to winning. But the odds were too great. Harold is the hero still. Arthur Pendragon was a semi-mythic hero for the Britons in a lost cause.

My favourite is Constantine XII Palaiologos the last emperor of Byzantium. He was a brave soldier who had fought the invading Turks for all of his young life. In 1453 after a long siege hundreds of thousands of Turks stormed the crumbling walls of Constantinople and a few thousand defenders. Constantine was seen sword in hand by the Turks fighting about 6 Turks. He was bleeding and wounded but would not surrender. He fought so bravely even the Turks honoured him later.

Lucifer is the mythological tragic hero who had courage, and principle, and who fought a battle he knew he would lose. That is the basis of Satanism. They don't worship Satan as a being but the symbol of a hero who fought against a cruel vengeful god and his storm trooper and panzers. The Satanist's message is humans need to work to improve their lives, help one another, not be ashamed of being happy, and counter the people who worship/fear a God of misery.

Fiach

diana · 03-20-2003, 02:10 AM

Quote:

The Satanist's message is humans need to work to improve their lives, help one another, not be ashamed of being happy, and counter the people who worship/fear a God of misery.

If I quote this as my creed, does that make me a Satanist, then? This is what I'm all about.

d

Oh, and theIPU: as interesting as I think this thread is, I don't think it's an EoG topic. I see the tenuous link to Pascal's Wager--let's call it Crowley's Wager--often used to argue ineffectually for the EoG, but we move those, too.

Off to General Religious Discussions....

Fiach · 03-20-2003, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana
If I quote this as my creed, does that make me a Satanist, then? This is what I'm all about.

d

Oh, and theIPU: as interesting as I think this thread is, I don't think it's an EoG topic. I see the tenuous link to Pascal's Wager--let's call it Crowley's Wager--often used to argue ineffectually for the EoG, but we move those, too.

Off to General Religious Discussions....

I think that your "creed" is an example of a rational humanistic view of yourself and others. I happen to agree. My impression is that Satanism is not really a serious worship of Satan as a crypto-god. Satan is the opposition to the God of capricious indifference to suffering. Satan is opposition to God's cruelty, injustice, narcisssism, homicidal rage attacks, and treatment of humans as mere slaves or badly treated pet animals. (And we are animals.)

So Satan is the logo of sorts to many who believe as we do, without necessarily believing that Satan is real. That is why I described him as the tragic hero, a fighter against an unjust god. I don't know if anyone has presented this particular view of Satan before. Perhaps Satanists do so but I don't know any of them.

Fiach

Hawkingfan · 03-20-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fiach
That is why I described him as the tragic hero, a fighter against an unjust god. I don't know if anyone has presented this particular view of Satan before. Perhaps Satanists do so but I don't know any of them.

Yes, I agree with all you have said. Your views closely reiterate what Anton LeVay writes in "The Satanic Bible". That book is wonderful in describing Secular Humanism (which LeVay says is the same as Satanism--because anything that is not Christian is Satanic in his point of view, even atheism). Some people have criticized Mr. LeVay's satanic lifestyle as "selfish" because it stresses the gratification of ones own human desires as a top priority in living a productive life, but he clearly shows in his writing that one cannot interfere or stifle another's gratification (i.e. abuse them). He also addresses many myths about Satanism, including human sacrifice (it is condemned in Satanism), the "spiritual" nature of Satanism (it "is not a religion of the spirit, but of the flesh"), and belief in the afterlife (Satanists do not believe in one). He describes it as a rebellion against an evil god and christianity. However, he does address Satan as a real, living entity (something that as an atheist I do not believe in). But, basically you have the gist of it with what you said in your post.

Fiach · 03-20-2003, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
Yes, I agree with all you have said. Your views closely reiterate what Anton LeVay writes in "The Satanic Bible". That book is wonderful in describing Secular Humanism (which LeVay says is the same as Satanism--because anything that is not Christian is Satanic in his point of view, even atheism). Some people have criticized Mr. LeVay's satanic lifestyle as "selfish" because it stresses the gratification of ones own human desires as a top priority in living a productive life, but he clearly shows in his writing that one cannot interfere or stifle another's gratification (i.e. abuse them). He also addresses many myths about Satanism, including human sacrifice (it is condemned in Satanism), the "spiritual" nature of Satanism (it "is not a religion of the spirit, but of the flesh"), and belief in the afterlife (Satanists do not believe in one). He describes it as a rebellion against an evil god and christianity. However, he does address Satan as a real, living entity (something that as an atheist I do not believe in). But, basically you have the gist of it with what you said in your post.

I would also re-emphasise that Satan as the brave but tragic hero is an important symbol. He is superintelligent (the fictional chap), knows that he cannot defeat the cruel, evil tyrant (God, also fictional), but he fights anyway. Like Constantine XI Palaiologos, Emperor of Byzantium with 4000 soldiers had no chance against 200,000 Turks, but he refused to surrender. He fought and died fighting single handedly against 5 Turk soldiers. He was real, while Satan is fictional. But they give me the same message. Secular Humanists/Satanists are rebelling against the cruel, indeed evil theology of Christianity and its tyrant god.

Fundies often ask me what I will say when (if) I face God on Judgment Day. My answer is "God, before you send me to hell or read off my sins, I wish to read off the following charges against you."

"According to the Bible you are guilty of genocide in the millions in Noah's Flood, in addition to 80 billion counts of aniimal cruelty. You are also guilty of setting up a sting operation to intice Adam and Eve to break a rule. You invented inherited guilt. You required blood sacrifice for Adam's victimless crime. You invented cancer, genetic diseases of children, lethal brain tumours in children, disease bacteria and viruses including HIV. You created parasitic worms that invade the brain, muscles, liver, and heart. You invented protozoan parasites. You even punished the "animals" by making nearly all of them end life being torn apart by tooth and claw and eaten while still alive. Your followers started thousands of wars. The Bible says you ordered Israelite Storm Troopers to attack cities, kill men, women, children, and babies. You ordered them to rip open pregnant Samarian women with swords...."..on and on for 8 hours of charges that would delay me going to Hell.

Fiach

philechat · 03-20-2003, 05:35 PM

In Milton's epic poem "Paradise Lost", Satan plays a central role, whose characterization are lauded by later poets as more colorful, more deserving of sympathy, than the figure of God or Christ. Many scholars therefore speculate that Milton has some identification with Satan even though "Paradise Lost" is a theological poem, and that Satan is revered as a figure of human freedom and dignity by even the poet himself. Some gnostic Christians also insist that Yahweh is indeed the evil God, and the true God can only be realized through extensive philosophical contemplations, stressing more on individual enlightenment as the method of attaining divine truth instead of obeisance to commandments.

A sympathy for Satan is also found in Blake's "the marriage of heaven and hell". In the poem Blake rebukes the good God (represented by the angels) and calls evil a necessary ingredient to human vitality and creativity. His "gospels of hell" (don't remember the exact name) have statements that deliberately subvert Christian doctrines. In his opinion they are essential component to his ideal state of being, or "the marriage of heaven and hell".

The Greeks have a similar figure Prometheus, who also shows an unusual sympathy to humanity in defiance to Zeus.

Fiach · 03-20-2003, 07:02 PM

Philichat:

From what I read of the Cathars (also called Albigensians in France and Italy, and Bogomils in the Balkans) they have a similar view as the Gnotics you describe.

They saw what all unbelivers see. That the Old Testament describes God as a terrible tyrant who kills without remorse, who causes disease, kills babies and orders followers (Israelites) to kill babies. Kills the world with a flood. How can that god be good, and be in such seeming conflict with Jesus' Sermon on the Mount?

They came up with the most obvious solution after the Persians gave them the character Satan (from Ahriman). The Persians had a duality that old Judaism lacked. So the obvious answer to Crusading Franks returning from the "holy land" was to opine that the Old Testament God was Satan, and Jesus came by his redemptive act to take back the world from the evil Satan/YHWH.

This was so rational compared to Catholicism that it began to spread and led to the Pope launching a very bloody crusade called the Albigensian Crusade. Humans naturally like Simon de Montfort used it as an excuse to loot treasures from the Cathar castles in the south of France around Toulouse and along the Pyrenees. Hundreds of thousands to millions are believed to have been slaughtered, even those who surrendered. Their brethren in the Balkans suffered some attacks but were saved (believe it or not) by the Islamic Ottoman Turks who conquered the areas in the 14th century. Those Bogomils then found more to like about Islam than Catholicism. They converted to Islam. And their descendants are today's Islamic Bosnians, Albanians, and Kosovars.

Catharism may (in a relative sense only) be the most reasonable variety of the Abrahamic religions. Their "heresy" exposes the major Biblical flaws and contradictions of Judeo-Christianity.

Fiach

Magus55 · 03-20-2003, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theIPU
Ok, let's all just assume the god in the bible exists and there is satan and all that other stuff (for the sake of argument)

1. If you worship satan he will reward you
2. You will have fun in hell forever
3. Hell is seperation from god (according to my catholic fundy teacher) so god can't do anything to you

Sorta like a pascal's wager for satanists

Um, if the God of the bible exists, Satan can't reward you with crap. Satan does not like you. He isn't trying to be friends with you, he WANTS you to suffer like him. Satan is not some nice person who just didn't approve of God. He turns people away from God because he wants them become lost. He is sadistic and enjoys the pain and suffering humans endure.

Second, fun plus hell in same sentence. Um wrong. You suffer, torment, burn for ever and ever and ever ad infinitum. Satan will not be having fun either, he will be right along side of you suffering forever too. Hell is not a party for God haters, its permanent punishment.

Hell is a separation from God. What else does God need to do to you? You chose to go to Hell by rejecting him, and your fate is eternal torment. There is nothing worse. And you seem to think God is hurting you? Satan is the one who hurts humans through evil. Satan is the Hitler of the spiritual existence.

What a disturbing view if God turns out to be real. Its sad how many people Satan has deceived

03-19-2003, 06:52 PM	#1
theIPU Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 65	Worshipping Satan Ok, let's all just assume the god in the bible exists and there is satan and all that other stuff (for the sake of argument) 1. If you worship satan he will reward you 2. You will have fun in hell forever 3. Hell is seperation from god (according to my catholic fundy teacher) so god can't do anything to you Sorta like a pascal's wager for satanists

03-19-2003, 10:14 PM	#3
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	Lucifer, the classic tragic hero. I think that there is a certain attraction to Lucifer. He presumably knew that he could not defeat God. He knew he would suffer for rebelling. But he tried his best. He fought God's more powerful army in a lost cause. He showed courage, principle, and pride (a good virtue in my opinion). He became secretly admired by Jews and Christians who would never admit it. We all admire the tragic hero of the lost cause. We recognise William the Conqueror for his victory and cruelty. But many think of Harold of the Saxons as the tragic hero, fighting and dying in a lost cause. He had just fought the Scandinavians. He and his army was exhausted and walking wounded infantry, but he and his Saxon heroes stood their ground against Williams armoured Knights and came close to winning. But the odds were too great. Harold is the hero still. Arthur Pendragon was a semi-mythic hero for the Britons in a lost cause. My favourite is Constantine XII Palaiologos the last emperor of Byzantium. He was a brave soldier who had fought the invading Turks for all of his young life. In 1453 after a long siege hundreds of thousands of Turks stormed the crumbling walls of Constantinople and a few thousand defenders. Constantine was seen sword in hand by the Turks fighting about 6 Turks. He was bleeding and wounded but would not surrender. He fought so bravely even the Turks honoured him later. Lucifer is the mythological tragic hero who had courage, and principle, and who fought a battle he knew he would lose. That is the basis of Satanism. They don't worship Satan as a being but the symbol of a hero who fought against a cruel vengeful god and his storm trooper and panzers. The Satanist's message is humans need to work to improve their lives, help one another, not be ashamed of being happy, and counter the people who worship/fear a God of misery. Fiach

03-20-2003, 07:02 PM	#9
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	Cathars as well. Philichat: From what I read of the Cathars (also called Albigensians in France and Italy, and Bogomils in the Balkans) they have a similar view as the Gnotics you describe. They saw what all unbelivers see. That the Old Testament describes God as a terrible tyrant who kills without remorse, who causes disease, kills babies and orders followers (Israelites) to kill babies. Kills the world with a flood. How can that god be good, and be in such seeming conflict with Jesus' Sermon on the Mount? They came up with the most obvious solution after the Persians gave them the character Satan (from Ahriman). The Persians had a duality that old Judaism lacked. So the obvious answer to Crusading Franks returning from the "holy land" was to opine that the Old Testament God was Satan, and Jesus came by his redemptive act to take back the world from the evil Satan/YHWH. This was so rational compared to Catholicism that it began to spread and led to the Pope launching a very bloody crusade called the Albigensian Crusade. Humans naturally like Simon de Montfort used it as an excuse to loot treasures from the Cathar castles in the south of France around Toulouse and along the Pyrenees. Hundreds of thousands to millions are believed to have been slaughtered, even those who surrendered. Their brethren in the Balkans suffered some attacks but were saved (believe it or not) by the Islamic Ottoman Turks who conquered the areas in the 14th century. Those Bogomils then found more to like about Islam than Catholicism. They converted to Islam. And their descendants are today's Islamic Bosnians, Albanians, and Kosovars. Catharism may (in a relative sense only) be the most reasonable variety of the Abrahamic religions. Their "heresy" exposes the major Biblical flaws and contradictions of Judeo-Christianity. Fiach

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03-19-2003, 07:05 PM	#2
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	Stand back! Here come the theists...rumble-rumble-rumble

03-20-2003, 05:35 PM	#8
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	In Milton's epic poem "Paradise Lost", Satan plays a central role, whose characterization are lauded by later poets as more colorful, more deserving of sympathy, than the figure of God or Christ. Many scholars therefore speculate that Milton has some identification with Satan even though "Paradise Lost" is a theological poem, and that Satan is revered as a figure of human freedom and dignity by even the poet himself. Some gnostic Christians also insist that Yahweh is indeed the evil God, and the true God can only be realized through extensive philosophical contemplations, stressing more on individual enlightenment as the method of attaining divine truth instead of obeisance to commandments. A sympathy for Satan is also found in Blake's "the marriage of heaven and hell". In the poem Blake rebukes the good God (represented by the angels) and calls evil a necessary ingredient to human vitality and creativity. His "gospels of hell" (don't remember the exact name) have statements that deliberately subvert Christian doctrines. In his opinion they are essential component to his ideal state of being, or "the marriage of heaven and hell". The Greeks have a similar figure Prometheus, who also shows an unusual sympathy to humanity in defiance to Zeus.

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