Freethought & Rationalism Archive

eh · 02-23-2002, 09:27 AM

I'm wondering why the Hebrew creation myth has days and nights being seperated by the moon and the sun. Now of course, when the sun goes down, we get nightfall, and you'll never be able to view the sun in this state. But the moon is a different story. While it does shine at night, you can sometimes see it during the day time, provided the sky is clear enough. This seems rather obvious, as what child hasn't spoted the moon during daylight hours and wondered, what the hell is that doing here?

So what do you suppose was the inspiration of the ancient Hebrews when coming up with this creation myth? Could it be strictly the shining factor of the sun and the moon?

Answerer · 02-23-2002, 06:04 PM

Because their God created day and night before sun and moon are created, so to solve this logical mistake, some fo the Jews now said that sun and day are independent during the time of creation(which is idoitic). It is now believed by the historicans that the creation myth from the bible came from the babylonian's own creation myth during the time the Jews were imprisoned by the babylonian.

Jayhawker Soule · 02-24-2002, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Answerer:
<strong>... the Jews now said that sun and day are independent during the time of creation(which is idoitic). It is now believed by the historicans that the creation myth from the bible came from the babylonian's own creation myth during the time the Jews were imprisoned by the babylonian.</strong>

Just an off-topic observation: in this and other threads, you seem to tend towards rather harsh/judgemental language -- usually in sentences referencing "the Jews". I would hope that yours is an equal opportunity contempt, i.e., equally applied to gentile Christians, Arab Muslims, and Thai Buddhists, Hindus, and Sikhs.

By the way, regarding to your history tutorial, <a href="http://www.cybercomm.net/~grandpa/cretion3.html#babylonia" target="_blank">This Website Notes:</a>

Quote:

Babylonian Creation Myths
From the mixing of Apsu (sweet water) and Tiamat (salt water) there arose the gods, Mummu (the waves), and Lakhmu and Lakhamu (gigantic twin serpents). The serpents produced Anshar (heaven) and Kishar (earth). From these two came Anu, Enlil, and Ea, as well as all the other gods of the sky, earth, and underworld. Apsu and Tiamat became angered because of the noise made by such a large group of gods, and began talking about killing off their progeny so they could get some rest. When Ea, the all-knowing, learned of this he used his magic to capture Apsu and Mummu. Tiamat was furious and raised a large army of gods and freaks to battle Ea and his cohorts. Anu and Ea became frightened and Ea created Marduk to battle Tiamat. Marduk promised to do so if he were granted supremacy over all the other gods. All the gods agreed and Marduk, armed with bow and arrows, lightning, the winds, a hurricane, and a special net sallied forth to battle Tiamat. When they clashed, Marduk caught Tiamat in his special net, and as she opened her mouth to swallow him, loosed the hurricane into her mouth. As she swelled from the hurricane within her, Marduk slew her with an arrow into her belly. Then he cast the net again capturing her army within it. These he chained and cast into the underworld. From her corpse the world is created. He was then proclaimed God of the Gods.
Another Babylonia Creation Myth
In the beginning there was only darkness and water. Out of this Chaos there came many odd creatures: men with wings, two faces, or both; creatures that were male and female combined; humans with goat feet; others who were part horse and part man. These creatures were ruled over by Omorka, the (female) moon. Marduk cut Omorka in two, and separated the the halves into sky and earth, and destroyed all of the odd beings that existed. Then Marduk commanded one of the gods to cut off his head, and from the blood and clay of the earth, he created humans, animals, stars, sun, moon, and everything that is.

I cannot seem to recall any of this from Genesis but, then again, I don't claim to be a Biblical scholar (... or Answerer).

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

NOGO · 02-24-2002, 10:12 AM

The question that you are asking is this.
Didn't ancient people notice that the moon can sometimes be seen during the day but the sun is never seen during the night?

The conclusion of this thinking would have led them to the idea that day and night is dictated by the sun and has nothing to do with the moon.

This kind of brainteaser may have been solved by some ancient intellectual techie but would have been of no interest to the average person and even less to the priesthood.

I do not believe that the mythmakers of the time would have accepted that the earth was a rotating spec at the edge of an immense galaxy in a gargantuan universe. Man's importance in such a universe would have been obviously minuscule and therefore not appropriate for myth making.

I would think that because the moon appears to be the same size as the sun an equallly important role had to be assigned to it. So the moon ruled over the night while the sun ruled over the day.

But I am just guessing.

Marduk · 02-24-2002, 04:01 PM

"I cannot seem to recall any of this from Genesis but, then again, I don't claim to be a Biblical scholar (... or Answerer). "

Ok, so they polished that part up a little. The Atrahasis has a more detailed story on the 'make the humans from clay' stuff.
<a href="http://www.piney.com/Atrahasis.html" target="_blank">http://www.piney.com/Atrahasis.html</a>

The flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh is more in line with the Gen. version. Smiths "The Chaldean Genesis" has more.
The Epic of Zu has the battle in Heaven between the good and bad gods.
There are also stories smilar to Job and the Tower of babble, Ea opens the gates of Sumer and lets the barbarina rabble in to confuse the languages of the people. (Sumer was conquered by the Akkadia Sargon in 2250 BCE.
Stephany Dalleys translation of the Enuma Elish (aka 7 Tablets of Creation) is a little different then the one you mentioned.
There are many versions some more 'sophisticated' than others.
Consider how old these are compared to the Bible.
More time to spruce things up.
Also not sure what you mean about you comment about "the Jews". Thought this was just another term for Hebrews, not meant to be derogatory at all.

Jayhawker Soule · 02-24-2002, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Also not sure what you mean about you comment about "the Jews". Thought this was just another term for Hebrews, not meant to be derogatory at all.

I agree. Having read a few offerings from Answered, I wrote "Just an off-topic observation: in this and other threads, you seem to tend towards rather harsh/judgemental language -- usually in sentences referencing "the Jews". I would hope that yours is an equal opportunity contempt, i.e., equally applied to gentile Christians, Arab Muslims, and Thai Buddhists, Hindus, and Sikhs." If I misinterpreted his/her intent, I stand corrected.

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

02-23-2002, 09:27 AM	#1
eh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 624	Why did the Hebrews think the Moon and Sun seperated the night from day? I'm wondering why the Hebrew creation myth has days and nights being seperated by the moon and the sun. Now of course, when the sun goes down, we get nightfall, and you'll never be able to view the sun in this state. But the moon is a different story. While it does shine at night, you can sometimes see it during the day time, provided the sky is clear enough. This seems rather obvious, as what child hasn't spoted the moon during daylight hours and wondered, what the hell is that doing here? So what do you suppose was the inspiration of the ancient Hebrews when coming up with this creation myth? Could it be strictly the shining factor of the sun and the moon?

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02-23-2002, 06:04 PM	#2
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Because their God created day and night before sun and moon are created, so to solve this logical mistake, some fo the Jews now said that sun and day are independent during the time of creation(which is idoitic). It is now believed by the historicans that the creation myth from the bible came from the babylonian's own creation myth during the time the Jews were imprisoned by the babylonian.

02-24-2002, 10:12 AM	#4
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	The question that you are asking is this. Didn't ancient people notice that the moon can sometimes be seen during the day but the sun is never seen during the night? The conclusion of this thinking would have led them to the idea that day and night is dictated by the sun and has nothing to do with the moon. This kind of brainteaser may have been solved by some ancient intellectual techie but would have been of no interest to the average person and even less to the priesthood. I do not believe that the mythmakers of the time would have accepted that the earth was a rotating spec at the edge of an immense galaxy in a gargantuan universe. Man's importance in such a universe would have been obviously minuscule and therefore not appropriate for myth making. I would think that because the moon appears to be the same size as the sun an equallly important role had to be assigned to it. So the moon ruled over the night while the sun ruled over the day. But I am just guessing.

02-24-2002, 04:01 PM	#5
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"I cannot seem to recall any of this from Genesis but, then again, I don't claim to be a Biblical scholar (... or Answerer). " Ok, so they polished that part up a little. The Atrahasis has a more detailed story on the 'make the humans from clay' stuff. <a href="http://www.piney.com/Atrahasis.html" target="_blank">http://www.piney.com/Atrahasis.html</a> The flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh is more in line with the Gen. version. Smiths "The Chaldean Genesis" has more. The Epic of Zu has the battle in Heaven between the good and bad gods. There are also stories smilar to Job and the Tower of babble, Ea opens the gates of Sumer and lets the barbarina rabble in to confuse the languages of the people. (Sumer was conquered by the Akkadia Sargon in 2250 BCE. Stephany Dalleys translation of the Enuma Elish (aka 7 Tablets of Creation) is a little different then the one you mentioned. There are many versions some more 'sophisticated' than others. Consider how old these are compared to the Bible. More time to spruce things up. Also not sure what you mean about you comment about "the Jews". Thought this was just another term for Hebrews, not meant to be derogatory at all.

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