Freethought & Rationalism Archive

braces_for_impact · 07-08-2003, 12:30 PM

Exactly, i would want to make an informed choice! To me it seems anyone who subscribes to any religion is taking a big gamble. One is that they choose the correct religion and two is that they're gambling on this whole afterlife thing, but we really have very little knowledge as to what it's actually like.

Hedwig · 07-08-2003, 03:25 PM

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Originally posted by Magus55
So let me get this straight. You spend your whole life, ignoring God, blasphemeing(sp) Him, sinning your whole life, disobeying His laws, living your life for you and focusing on greed and self gratification, insulting/persecuting God's "children", and continually reject and ignore God's offer of salvation - and you think you should just get to cease to exist as your punishment, when its exactly what you want anyway ( since you said you would never want to be in Heaven)? You call that a fair justice system? Would hate to have you in the government. You'd pass a law allowing criminals to decide their own punishment .

Cheerist, Magus. That's one hell of an assumption you're making about the kind of life most of us atheists choose to live.

Hedwig · 07-08-2003, 03:34 PM

I personally dig the idea of reincarnation. Keep coming back, memories intact, and see the progress of mankind.

I agree with the others: if I found myself before Saint Peter after death that would be adequate proof that the whole soul business is true. If given a choice: heaven or non-existence, if heaven sounded appealing, I'd go with heaven.

Godless Dave · 07-08-2003, 06:24 PM

... with the rest of the angels

cydonia · 07-08-2003, 07:27 PM

Actually, in America our government is comprised of the people, and the people we elect to represent us. God's government is a dictatorship where dissent is rewarded with death.

I like our form a little better.

But, I don't want to go to hell.

I'm screwed.

Rachel · 07-08-2003, 10:47 PM

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Originally posted by braces_for_impact
Your holy book speak of flames, burning and gnashing of teeth. This is clearly where the bible says you go for all eternity for finite "sins" here on earth. A punishment is a consequence, but it is an activity designed to show the error of one's ways and to reinforce correct behavior. An eternity of torture is not punishment, it is as I stated, torture.

That's lovely. Not relevant to me because I never stated that hell was a punishment, just a consequence. A punishment is a consequence, but a consequence isn't necessarily a punishment, even if it is of a negative nature.

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It does if the action in question is a good act and the deity in question claims omnibenevolence. Since allowing people to suffer for all eternity for finite "sins" in the real world is obviously neither good nor just, this applies here.

Who determines what a "good act" is? What makes your definition of what is good and just better than my definition?

Assuming the Christian God does exist then all non-Christians have sinned. Do we allow criminals to determine the legal consequences of their actions, or does the justice system determine that? I?m sure many of the murders currently serving life sentences feel it would be a "good act" to free them. Is such an act automatically just because they?d suffer if we don't?

If we extend your logic to our judicial system you'd have to support the criminal.

It's not a perfect analogy because of I don't see hell as a punishment, but the principle of it fits.

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That's right, criteria. You must ask Jesus for forgiveness, that is the main theme here. Another form of pennance which truly never addresses the wrong in question. This would be consistent with ancient barbaric customs of morality.

If you are genuinely apologetic for actions you took, do you ignore them and continue to behave in such a manner? Simply by acknowledging that forgiveness is required you are addressing the wrong in question.

Do all Christians do that? No but I see that as a fault with the followers not with the religion.

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Don't confuse blame for proper accountability. If I as an atheist do something wrong, I am accountable, and I must make amends to the person I wronged. A higher power is not necessary nor desired. The idea that I should pray to a deity for forgiveness for a transgression as opposed to attempting to make amends to the person that was hurt by my misdeed is ludicrous. Considering your god (or at least his followers) give him the characteristics of being omniscient and omnibenevolent, then any evil we see WOULD be the direct responsibility of the christian god. What you do is attempt to rationalize your world view by making man responsible because logically you can not reconcile a god that is all good with all the evil that takes place in the world today, much of which is NOT any direct result of humans.

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I agree, we should address personal responsibility. But, we should not just stress this point with humans. We must also apply this criteria to your god. To hold one accountable and not the other is intellectually dishonest. Your god is omniscient, he knows all and so he knows the future. He knows everything that will happen, yet he took the actions he has taken, from the creation of angels and Lucifer to the creation of man. He made the flood, destroyed the tower of Babel, Sodom and Ghomorrah, sent Jesus, etc. he created me knowing that his very concept would sound unreasonable to me and that I would reject him, and he would have to force me into hell. YET HE CREATED ME ANYWAY. Personal accountability indeed.

It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that God does know the future. It has simply been assumed by many Christians that he must. Prove, or provide evidence towards it, that the Christian God knows the future and I'll agree that he can be held jointly accountable for the actions of man by allowing their existence.

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You would rather blame your fellow human beings even though you have no idea how moral they are, than challenge your beliefs. I find this sad.

You're full of presumptions today.

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I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

It was stated that God is punishing murder and unbelief with the same penalty. I was disagreeing.

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Some Christians may consider it that, but the bible clearly states it as a place of burning and torture. Remember Jesus' parables? If you dismiss this as allegory, then is it not possible that Jesus requirements of belief can be allegorical as well?

Possible? Absolutely. Anything is possible when we're discussing God. It's up to each individual how they interpret the different sections of the bible. I don't feel that if the Bible is the genuine thing it is supposed to be taken literally all of the time.

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Perhaps you have misplaced your bible. I would find it, since your off hand knowledge of the subject matter seems quite limited. Remember the concept of original sin? That's why Jesus supposedly came, to save us from our sins and the sins of Adam and Eve who cursed them and every subsequent generation. See how easy that is? God sent himself, to save us from his wrath, because of a rule he created! Yes, very simple....

Or I have a different interpretation. Considering we're discussing Christianity, which has 1000 faces it's quite possible.

Show me a perfect adult and I will agree that there are those being punished for the actions of others.

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More at issue here, if your parents say "You have ignored us, so now we must eternally torture you." Is the torturer right or wrong? I doubt you'll answer this, but we shall see.

The torturer is wrong. We need to agree that hell is torture from God before this becomes relevant however. I don't agree.

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This I highly doubt.

Based on you're in depth knowledge of both my beliefs and how I decided them? I haven't states in this thread, or any other on this board, what my beliefs are. Don't make presumptions based on one subject.

I don't have a problem with this section of Christian beliefs. That does not mean I have no problem with all Christian beliefs or that I follow the religion blindly. There are sections of Judaism, Islam, Wicca, Buddhism and Hinduism I also have no problem with. Am I follower of all of them?

(Note when I refer to someone's beliefs, I am referring both to belief or lack-of)

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Look around the globe, do you think it's coincidence that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. just seem to be located near each other geographically? Most people follow the religion of their culture.

What it shows me is that the majority of humans are either lazy in regards to this section of their life. The majority of the time they choose not to question their culture or investigate other beliefs. That saddens me, but that's their right. It's neither an argument for or against any religion.

There are those who live in countries where questioning the mainstream beliefs isn?t allowed, but even in those places some do.

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What if you choose the wrong religion, by investigating all of your different options, and it turns out you made the wrong choice? That is your mistake all right. But it is STILL and evil act for Allah to throw you in hell for all eternity is it not?

Islam is a major religion. I have access to it and the ability to decide whether to accept or reject it. If Allah purposely chooses to give me false evidence to dispute his existence then yes, his actions could be described as evil. Assuming that isn't the case, no I don't believe leaving me to the consequences of my actions to be evil.

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In closing, you make several requests for relevance to the OP when charges of moral outrages are brought against your god. These are entirely relevant because if they are true then it means A) Your god is morally bankrupt and not worthy of worship. B) Your god does not exist with the characteristics you have described for him. Either reason is good enough not to worship such a god, and the end result would be (according to most doctrines) that we would go to hell. This is entirely related to the OP>

So by your reasoning even if he does exist he's not worth worshipping. Yet you want to be given access to the benefits of worshipping. Another interesting take on life.

I?m sure there's logic in there somewhere. I might try it on my boss. Maybe he?ll pay me even if I refuse to work for him. [/sarcasm]

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07-08-2003, 12:30 PM	#31
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Exactly, i would want to make an informed choice! To me it seems anyone who subscribes to any religion is taking a big gamble. One is that they choose the correct religion and two is that they're gambling on this whole afterlife thing, but we really have very little knowledge as to what it's actually like.

07-08-2003, 03:34 PM	#33
Hedwig Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 3,921	I personally dig the idea of reincarnation. Keep coming back, memories intact, and see the progress of mankind. I agree with the others: if I found myself before Saint Peter after death that would be adequate proof that the whole soul business is true. If given a choice: heaven or non-existence, if heaven sounded appealing, I'd go with heaven.

07-08-2003, 06:24 PM	#34
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	... with the rest of the angels

07-08-2003, 07:27 PM	#35
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Actually, in America our government is comprised of the people, and the people we elect to represent us. God's government is a dictatorship where dissent is rewarded with death. I like our form a little better. But, I don't want to go to hell. I'm screwed.

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