GunnerJ

Somehow I get the impression that sevensky is less interested in actual open-minded argument and more interested in getting the most out of his favorite new expression, "point-scoring."

svensky

Muslims adhere to the teachings of chirst in some manner. That is rather a broad net to cast.

Here you go<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=romans+10%3A9-11&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Romans 10:9-11</a> Concise enough ?

And it cant be both for what reason ? Also, how do you know the two are not equivalent ?

Lets see, to disagree that christ was God, is to no longer be a christian. It is a not negotiable thing. For the groups that didn't do that, Do they really disagree ?

Jason

svensky

A follower of christ. What did you think it was ? Sadly the term has largely been rendered meaningless.

See my previous post.

Read a bible. Comapre what they teach to that.

Do some research. Compare it with the bible, see who agrees with it. Use reason and logic. How do you normally make important decisions ?

Jason

svensky

Given the general meaninglessness of the term christian in the west,(apparently 90% of americans self report that they are christians, but why are the churches so empty ?) why should any group simply claiming to be christian be given the title ?

As I said, discounting the groups I took excpetion with (and perhaps the roman catholic church as well) they do agree on how to be saved.

Jason

Doubting Thomas

Jason,

Thanks for Romans 10:9-11, I missed that one! But you fail to reconcile:

So, do I need to be baptized to be saved? According to you, belief is enough but many mainstream denominations would disagree. Do I need to add works and the "Great Commission" to the formula? What about predestination? Or is it once saved, always saved?

I beg to differ, again, most definitions of "Christian" say: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. His "divinity" is another matter and has been the subject of great debate since Constantine. You may wish to dust off your history books.

You may wish to re-read the article and take note of what biblical contradictions I did point out. Suffice to say I do not have much "faith" in your Bible as a guide.

You accuse me of making men of straw? Only evaluating groups that I do not take "exception" to is not very objective and would be what I consider intellectually dishonest.

How do you know that the Angel Moroni did not indeed appear to Joseph Smith as he claims? You mention Islam, well, again how do you know that they are not right? Muhammad allegedly saw the Angel Gabriel. He too was "divinely inspired". It sure seems to me that a lot of prophets are somewhat confused.

You accuse me of "casting a wide net", well, I was being nice. I could have included many other religions into the mix. Remember, Christianity isn't the only belief system out there that has some form of heaven or hell. How do you know you're following the right religion?

Perhaps God needs to hold a meeting with the Angel Union and His prophets and get all these people on the same page!

-T

Echo

All you've told us so far is that if we discount all the groups who don't agree with you, then all the groups left over are the ones who do agree with you. Well at the risk of sounding rude- no shit.

This only tells us something about which groups agree with *you* and not which, if any, of those groups is actually *right*.

So how do we determine which one is right? The only criteria you've given us is to read the bible and pick which one fits it. For some reason, you seem to think that all the sects and denominations that you've discounted *don't* do that. Has a Jehovah's Witness ever visited your house, Jason? If not, you might try inviting one over one day. The first thing you'll notice is that he'll shove the bible in your face and start showing you all the places where the bible agrees with *him* and not *you* and if you'd just remove the scales from your eyes you'd plainly see it. And when you're done with that, cruise on over to a Catholic church and ask them for a scriptural basis for *their* position, and I'm sure they will be more than happy to accomodate you. And if you get *really* bored, head on over to the BaptistBoard and investigate their Calvinist versus Arminians board and ask them what you need to do to be saved- and ask for scriptural references. Then sit back and watch them disagree, despite the fact that they've read the bible just as you have, and just as we have.

doc58

Svensky,
I believe you are profoundly mistaken that the mainstream Christian denominations agree about the way to be saved and other essentials. I am in my mid 40's and have a lifetime of personal experience in first the Church of Christ and then in evangelical Bible churches and southern Baptist churches. All in Texas.

All believe in the strict inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture. However, the CofC and the other 2 have grave doubts about each others salvation.

Here is how a C of C person might reply to your thought that Romans 10:9,10 has the complete salvation picture.
"Svensky, If you read the Bible completely, you would see that water baptism by immersion is necessary for salvation. Mark 16:15,16, Acts 2:38(Repent and be baptized was the answer to the question of how to be saved). Good grief, I Peter 3:21 says "baptism now saves you". How can you be confident of your salvation if you don't see the simple and obvious teaching of scripture?"

Each of the 3 groups I mentioned has the highest regard for scripture and each claims that God has guided them to correct doctrine through their prayerful, earnest efforts and yet each of the 3 have significant differences in soteriology, eschatology, pneumatology, security of the believer, church leadership and structure, practice and importance of communion, requirements for church membership, significance of baptism, and even what are and aren't salvation issues.

Each is entirely convinced that they are correctly interpreting scripture and cannot understand why everyone doesn't see what is obvious to them.

Part of my realization that the Christian God does not exist involved the understanding that the vast differences in biblical understanding even among inerrantists testifies to the fact that the Bible is a jumbled mess of inconsistency, confusion and incoherence. I believed strongly for my entire life and this realization has been a sad and tough pill to swallow.

Doubting Thomas

Ditto!

-T

HelenM

Hi doc58

I don't believe people who found it easy [emotionally] to walk away from Christianity can ever can have been very involved in the way that some people here were once (as best I can tell).

You said you now believe the Christian God doesn't exist...do you still believe in a God of some sort? Are you agnostic? Are you atheist? If you don't mind talking about your current beliefs/nonbeliefs, that is

love
Helen

doc58

Helen,
Thanks for the response.
Yes, realizing that the entire foundation upon which my life was based for 40+ years was false was devastating mentally and emotionally.
I still am reeling from it.
Do I believe in God? I realy want to but I see no reason to believe in one or evidence of one. This world is a place of cruel randomness and arbitrariness and I see no intervention of God happening. I would certainly welcome him if he chose to reveal himself to me and would happily reimbrace Jesus as I used to. I really have enjoyed my Christian life and friends. I like living morally and with integrity.
But it is really hard for me to say that I don't believe in God as it is such a variance of mind from the rest of my life. However, I guess if you pinned me down I would say there is none and if there is he has no concern for or interaction with this world. And lest someone say that I must be angry at God for some bad happening in my life, it is untrue. I have lived a great life so far.
I have found some real benefits to the change. I feel much freer. I don't have to worry if I have correct doctrine or if I understand a bible passage correctly. I can freely admit that it is nonsensical and incomprehensible. I no longer have to defend the indefensible. I am so glad that the world is not filled with nice people bound for eternal torture. I am so glad people like Anne Frank, Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison and other people including relatives are not spending hour after unending hour being tortured.
I am much less judgmental. I see most people as doing the best they can to get through life and we are all fellow travelers on a tough road. We just need to help each other. I also like not being arrogant enough to think that out of 33,000 denominations, I was in the one who had it just right. It is so interesting to read the various Christians on these forums. They have differences from one another in their beliefs and yet each is comfortable in what they think because it makes sense to them.
It is still very hard. Very, very few people know of my change and I really don't want to mess anybody up so I will be silent with all but a few.
But I can never go back. After all, my beliefs are not something I conjure up. Even if I wanted to believe I can't anymore. Christianity is just untrue and wishing otherwise won't change it.