FarSeeker

Tenek, May 23, 2003 05:07 AMI refuse to accept that you believe human beings are imaginary until they are born, but that is what you are implying by saying "The Jews were already there. They already existed," which implies that unborn children don't exist. Besides, aborting children does "leaves a mark."

Take any one of the cells from an unborn child, give it to genetisists and they will tell you that cell is human (ie. it came from a human being). You are a lump of cells (an "ugly bag of mostly water" as a Star Trek writer put it). What you essentially are saying is that no one is human until you say so. The Nazis use the same argument. Despite your later comments, you can't "prove" that a third-trimester baby is a "some*one*", or that a child with everything but his head outside of his mother's body is a "some*one*" (in an argument I heard from a congressional debate, a liberal repeated over and over that a baby was human only after it was born, while refusing to define "born;" )! Neither can you "prove" Dr. Singer is wrong when he says a child isn't a child until HIS definition says so. So I'll avoid your little "prove it to me" fallacy as nothing I could say could possibly dissuade you from you godhood.

In other words, you have set no conditions that must be met to complete a proof. Thus no matter what I say, you just have to repeat: "nope, doesn't prove a thing, ..." like a program stuck in an infinite loop. Of course that reveals the problem: Atheists' want to play god: to say which humans may live and which may be killed. Stalin did it, Mao did it, etc., and now abortion shows it's a ubiquitous expression of Atheism.

In the roughly 40 million babies killed since Roe vs. Wade, "very, very few" works out to be a realistically huge number.

"A practical issue" about enforcement!? What a cop out (or as Monty Python put it: "that's fair cop")! If you are true to your word, then you admit to allowing the murder of children by abortionists for "practical" purposes. Despite the laws against illegal drugs we still have a drug problem. Despite laws against murder we still have murder. Despite all our laws, people still break them. That is a "practical problem," so your reasonning supports the repeal of ALL laws that have been broken because it has not been "practical" to enforce them! Uh oh! Are you advocating the legalization of infanticide because of Susan Smith's*, Amy Glossberg's, Kuturah Aldridge's and Melissa Drexler's killing of their children? (look them up on dogpile.com)(* http://world.std.com/~twc/freewill2.htm) Was it practical to even try to stop them? Not by your argument.

Amy Suzanne Grossberg, "was convicted of manslaughter and received a suspended sentence of 2 1/2 years with credit given for 64 days she served in prison."
Brian Carl Peterson, "received a suspended sentence of 2 years and walks free today." http://www.karisable.com/amybrian.htm

The same day they were sentenced, a man was reportedly sentenced to 10 years without the chance of parole for killing 10 cats. Do we value pets more than human? You can bet we do!

"Besides, it's a free ticket to heaven ..." That is the type of reasoning that has allows Atheists to murder so easily. "Killing [them] just spares [them] the suffering." That is not a choice for us; we cannot kill someone for crimes we THINK they might commit. David Payne (and I think Richard Dawkins too: http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra...kins_22_1.html) thinks Christians will eventually commit another 911, so you can now justify killing Christians.
On the other hand, under current standards, Stephen Hawking could have been aborted because of his "handicap." What would those murdered children have accomplished if they had been allowed to live?

Abortion reflects Atheists' fascination with death.
As for myself, I support Thomas Jefferson on this: For reference: "Although Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Roger Sherman and Robert B. Livingston comprised the committee charged with drafting the Declaration, the task fell to Jefferson..."
http://memory.loc.gov/const/abt_declar.html
PLEASE note the reference to LIFE!

Philosoft, May 23, 2003 06:33 AMYou misunderstand. Atheists don't want to suffer (to put up with especially as inevitable or unavoidable) Christians; that's why Atheists have killed so many of them.

How VERY manipulative of you! As Atheists will label any anti-abortion site as a "propaganda site," and any pro-abortion site as "informative and factual," you can't lose, and I can't win. But I do agree it is a farce... on the part of the Abortionists.
But FYI:
"Since 1973, George Tiller—or "Dr. Tiller", as he likes to call himself—has performed thousands upon thousands of late-term abortions. He is renowned among the pro-choice community for his impeccable record of safety: unlike some abortionists, he has yet to kill a woman in the process of terminating a pregnancy. His apparent skill as an abortion practitioner has won him numerous awards, including the National Abortion Federation's highest honor, the Christopher Tietze Humanitarian Award.
Among pro-life advocates, he is famous for the cruelty with which he treats the unborn. No case illustrates the extent of this cruelty better than the tragedy <http://www.calright2life.org/Sarahbrown.htm> of Baby Sarah Brown, one of his many victims. In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion. Tiller began the abortion by injecting a poisonous syringe through the pregnant teenager's uterus and into the upper left side of the unborn baby's face. He then instructed the teenager to return the next day for the completion of the abortion.

To everyone's dismay, the baby did not die during the intervening hours. After the teenager began to complain of serious abdominal pains, her parents rushed her to a local hospital where the baby was eventually born—alive. The delivery room staff felt that life-support would be futile, so they wrapped the baby in a bassinet without attendance. The teenager and her parents quickly left the scene."
...
"When confronted with stories like the story of Sarah Brown, pro-choice advocates usually insist that late-term abortions only occur in extreme, life-threatening circumstances. Until recently, this claim was an easy claim to make. For the most part, objective data on late-term abortion have been hard to come by. The abortion industry consistently refuses to disclose statistical information on the topic.

In the middle of 1998, the state of Kansas instituted a mandatory reporting policy that required Tiller to submit information about the abortions that he performs. The Kansas Department of Health and Environmental Statistics has recently published <http://www.kdhe.state.ks.us/hci/absumm.html> this information.

The information sends a clear message: the majority of late-term abortions are purely elective. They typically involve healthy babies and healthy mothers. "
http://www.abortiontv.com/GeorgeTiller.htm

Also consult: "Baby-saving made easy," U.S. News and World Report, Sept. 25, 2000, p. 16

Add: "On Monday, Feb. 18, HB-1317 will be heard in the House Health, Environment, Welfare and Institutions (HEWI) committee. Scheduled to testify is a nurse who has seen this inhumane practice first hand. Jill Stanek, from Oak Lawn, IL., will share her testimony about prematurely induced babies living up to eight hours with no medical care whatsoever. In one instance, Stanek retrieved a 10-inch, 21-week Down's Syndrome baby from a laundry room and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived." http://www.rmfc.org/leg207.html

WATCH THE BABY: http://www.illinoisleader.com/column...iew.asp?c=5843

David Payne and others have condemned Christians for supporting the Bible despite what Atheists have called atrocities it contains. Yet, here we have similar atrocities going on RIGHT NOW, babies being killed, with no up-roar from Atheists. That is telling.

Philosoft

FarSeeker,

Your anti-abortion arguments presumably have merit, but this is not the place to present them. As you've re-opened discussion only to respond to off-topic points (some of which I am responsible for), I'm locking the thread. I invite you to make your case in another forum, GRD perhaps. You'll get no shortage of responses, I'm sure.

~Philosoft, EoG mod