openeyes

Right, those are a parent's only options.

I don't believe in spanking. It also drives me bonkers to listen to a parent repeat him/herself endlessly without getting the kid to behave.

You can let a kid know who's in charge without resorting to spanking.

nermal

I've seen many of the other options promoted by modern child care "experts" applied by other parents. Holding therapy, passive restraint, etc. etc.
I can't help but believe many of those are more damaging than a simple spanking promptly and properly applied. One instance of restraint applied by a well-meaning spanking-hating parent reminded me of a scene from The Honoi Hilton. I even shouted "Dim Gow!" (Simpson's reference) as I passed.
I believe a balance is called for. Spanking is seldom the immediate response, except in instances where a young child insists on committing an act which may cause injury--playing with an electrical socket, for instance.
Spanking, used too often, or too forcefully, is child abuse. However, in my opinion, absolute refusal to spank when it is clearly warrented, is child neglect.

Ed

openeyes

"Clearly warranted" would be a hard standard to agree.

I think we could come up with quite a list of other things that would then also be considered child neglect if we were to include your suggestion.

Couldn't we take a step back and say that allowing a child that doesn't know better to be around unguarded sockets a form of neglect?

I'm not sure if this example illuminates my point or not, but when I stuck a tweezer in an outlet when I was 5 or so, the resulting spark and smoke (and shock? I honestly don't remember) was enough to convince me that it was a stupid idea. If my parents had seen me and spanked me in addition, it would've been redundant. If they had seen me right before and simply yelled out a warning, I also would have stopped and be reminded of the errors of my way. I was pretty old perhaps to be messing with sockets (what was I thinking!!), but I think you can get through to most kids without spanking even at a younger age. (And if you can't, then you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.)

christ-on-a-stick

Ed - Hmmmm... I wonder how many children/young people involved in the above things had parents who DID use corporal punishment?

Your attempt at correlation would be laughable if it weren't so ridiculous.

Seriously, I would love for you to come up with some statistic that shows that all of the kids involved in the above behaviors were never corporally punished, just "nagged into obedience", and that the great majority of those who WERE corporally punished avoid those situations and behaviors.

Consider it a challenge....

Harumi

Does it even have to be beatings? Do the beatings even have to hurt?

I recall vividly at one point how my father chased me down the stairs, past the kitchen and into the family room. I was screaming in terror, but since no one was in the house (or if they were they couldn't hear me) no one saved me. He chased me into the corner and slapped me a dozen times.

But it really didn't hurt. And there were other times where he would threaten to beat me (picking up a rake, or threatening to cut off my hands), and although it terrified me, it didn't physically hurt me.

Another was when he picked me up and tried to throw me across the room because I answered "what" instead of "yes". That didn't hurt either, since I hit the sofa, and I kicked straight back. Is that abuse?

I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm just glad that I'm the only one who's ever had to suffer through this, and I'll be going to college in a month. The fear is always there though. I'm terrified of him. His very vicinity makes my skin twinge in disgust. But I don't hate him. I just feel very sorry for him.

There are ways to hurt children without necessarily beating them.

Grad Student Humanist

Uh, yes! Who was your father, the Incredible Hulk?

I'm glad you weren't hurt, but there is no doubt that trying to throw a child across the room constitutes abuse. It could have turned out much differently and much more painfully for you.

nermal

nermal

I can't take that challenge. To my knowledge, no studies to this effect have been done, and I don't have a staff and grant to persue them.
My attempt at correlation was overly simplistic, even metaphorical perhaps. It was even a cheap shot, now that I read it again. But I don't think it was ridiculous on its face, and I'll attempt to defend its principle.

My points about the differences between youth today, and youth two generations ago are valid, and you didn't dispute them. So what's different today? We can look at a limited number of causes.

1. Exposure to television violence, and contempt for parental authority.
I would attribute a significant bit of the cause to this. I looked into this some years ago, and of over a dozen studies done by various organizations, only one study showed no correlation.

2. The drastic increase in single parent households.
Some correlation exists, certainly, but I see this as much effect as cause. This is in general a consequence of of the same dynamic which causes those conditions of which I wrote.

3. Increased poverty.
A nonstarter. Poverty has gone down since two generations ago, and poor youth don't hold a monopoly on the conditions outlined, although they are more susceptible to it.

4. Absent parents or the day care explosion.
I don't see this as causal. My limited experience with, and anecdotal second hand knowledge of the average daycare is that they are positive environments which socialize children well.

5. The new philosophical approach to parenting.
I can only cite my own experience for this, which is, admittedly, anecdotal. But I am not trying to defend spanking as universally applicable, only situationally. I am trying to defend the position that at times, spanking is the best technique. Therefore, I believe anecdotal evidence is sufficient.
I have witnessed with my own child, and with children of other parents, instances where spanking effectively corrected aberrant behaviors where a litany of other methods have failed. The children in question do not have PTSD or Stockholm Syndrome or any other such nonsense.

I am happy to keep addressing this, but I would also like to put the ball in the court of the antagonists. Why is spanking wrong?

Ed

openeyes

In the hands of the wrong people, it does. I think we've had more "shaking" and "battery" severe injuries/deaths of young children in my state over the past year than kids sticking something in a socket. My point was also, that I would've been stopped by sharp words and would not have needed a physical smack.

A better example may be a kid running away in a parking lot. That's dangerous. If that kid had been instructed to stay close and ran, a quick smack MAY be justified. But then it's up to the parents to decide what to do in the future. Maybe outings to the mall aren't feasable if you have two kids to contain and one adult. Maybe the order of releasing kids from their car seats has to be changed. Maybe instead of a smack you just re-load the kids into the car and say we can't do this if you don't listen and go home. There should be very few cases where spanking is justified, and if you need to do it in the same situation more than once, then I think it's up to the parents to re-evaluate and not take bad situations out on their kids repeatedly.

nermal