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Old 05-22-2002, 09:15 AM   #391
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Quote:
Originally posted by aspidistra:
<strong>

I have watched that little fish (actually THAT little fish -- I took the picture you posted) "walk" in the water. He looks like a little hippo -- simply amazing. Here is a pic of him in "hippo" mode. <a href="http://www.whozoo.org/fish/teleosts/Other/Anglefish27JL01FWZB71.jpg" target="_blank">Angler fish as Hippo</a>

Thanks for the clarification on fish phylogeny. Common ancestry is difficult to convey -- it often seems to wind up in the "humans come from chimps" corner. Yes, you and your cousin are relatives. No, your cousin is not your grandfather.</strong>
aspidistra!! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> Your website is AWESOME!! You have some of the best pics (closeups) I've seen on the web. Double welcome to II! I hope you'll jump in often when you get the chance.
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Old 05-22-2002, 03:25 PM   #392
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Ed is surely the energizer bunny of creationists. How can guys stay awake for this drivel?
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Old 05-22-2002, 04:42 PM   #393
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Ed is surely the energizer bunny of creationists. How can guys stay awake for this drivel?

Some of us no longer can. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

d
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Old 05-22-2002, 04:49 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally posted by Duvenoy:
<strong>
For another example of fins being used as 'legs', check out the mud skippers. Alas, I don't have any pics of them, but a quick google should turn something up.</strong>
They are also pretty cool. I first saw pictures of live ones on that old David Attenborough series Life on Earth and was blown away by their strangeness. A
<a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~thebobo/mud.htm" target="_blank">nice mudskipper page</a> is here, including a terrific photo by Tony Xu. And they don't even have lungs!
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:00 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally posted by lpetrich:
<strong>
Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:
(Ref H erectus / ergaster KNM-WT 15000’s skull) Ed: So it is definitely within the human range.
OC: Oddly enough, it's at the very bottom, if not outside, of the modern human range. As evolution expects.
Ed:
Maybe the lower range but definitely within the human range. As creation expects.

lp: How does one expect ANYTHING from some hypothesis of miraculous special creation?[/b]
The same way one expects anything from something that actually happened.

[b] [quote]lp: (a lot of other argument about Homo erectus specimens being either outside of or inside of the typical Homo sapiens range...)

However, the average of H. erectus is distinctly different from that of H. sapiens, even if there is some overlap at the edges of their parameter ranges.[b][quote]

The average of the bulldog is distinctly different from that of the doberman, even if there is some overlap at the edges of their parameter ranges.


[b]
Quote:
Ed:
Creation expects microevolutionary subtle differences. The quote comes from a personal communication with Marvin Lubenow.

lp: Ed, Ed, Ed, tell us how that is supposed to be "expected".
</strong>
Because we know from living in the computer age that only a mind can develop an adaptable system or programmed system. And living organisms display adaptability and "programming". One sign of that adaptibility is microevolution.
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Old 05-23-2002, 04:56 AM   #396
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed:
<strong>

Because we know from living in the computer age that only a mind can develop an adaptable system or programmed system. And living organisms display adaptability and "programming". One sign of that adaptibility is microevolution.</strong>
I have a nitpick. There is no such thing as "adaptability." An adaptation is a property of an organism. To use "adaptation" (or in this case, "adaptability") to describe a process in which the trait is actively acquired, is not legitimate. It implies a teleological goal where there is none.

Edited for spelling of "adaptibility" [sic].

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Zetek ]</p>
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Old 05-23-2002, 05:00 AM   #397
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[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Zetek ]</p>
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Old 05-23-2002, 05:44 AM   #398
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Quote:
lp: How does one expect ANYTHING from some hypothesis of miraculous special creation?
Ed:
The same way one expects anything from something that actually happened.
Notice how Ed does not really try to answer the question. Or the related question of what the hypothesis of special creation would not be able to account for.

Quote:
lp:
However, the average of H. erectus is distinctly different from that of H. sapiens, even if there is some overlap at the edges of their parameter ranges.[b]
Ed:
The average of the bulldog is distinctly different from that of the doberman, even if there is some overlap at the edges of their parameter ranges.
And lions and tigers look more alike than H. erectus and H. sapiens, yet they are usually considered separate species. That's also true of gray wolves and coyotes.

Quote:
Ed:
Creation expects microevolutionary subtle differences. ...

lp: Ed, Ed, Ed, tell us how that is supposed to be "expected".
Ed:
Because we know from living in the computer age that only a mind can develop an adaptable system or programmed system.
And how is that supposed to be the case?

Quote:
Ed:
And living organisms display adaptability and "programming". One sign of that adaptibility is microevolution.
However, I don't see how that indicates any designer. And even if one could be inferred, how can we be sure that it isn't something like little green men in a flying saucer?
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Old 05-23-2002, 06:13 AM   #399
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed:

lp: How does one expect ANYTHING from some hypothesis of miraculous special creation?

The same way one expects anything from something that actually happened.
And Ed’s impression of the fabled Oozelum bird continues! That is so circular that its head is up its own place Ed talks through!

Quote:
Because we know from living in the computer age that only a mind can develop an adaptable system or programmed system. And living organisms display adaptability and "programming".
Wrong. We know no such thing, just because it is the only version we have encountered. I guess you need to tell us your definition of ‘adapt’.

If, as is proposed, life (please also define) began as simple self-replicating molecules -- ie chemistry -- what, precisely, would you call a random change in one such molecule that gave it an advantage -- say, speed of replication -- over unmutated versions? Please explain the “adaptability and programming” present in a few bases of RNA. Once you’ve got self-replication, you will automatically get adaptation... and all the microevolution you can eat. Repeat, oh, say four billion years...

If you like, you can invoke your god to light this particular blue touchpaper... but it doesn’t look much like Genesis 1&2!

Quote:
One sign of that adaptibility is microevolution.
Yeah yeah... the sort of microevolution that means that all the variation within a Family is possible. I’m sure we must have asked this already, but please justify the boundaries to Families. If such diversity can be via ‘microevolution’, please state plainly why, say, birds could not evolve from dromeosaurs.

TTFN, Oolon
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Old 05-23-2002, 07:27 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally posted by Duck of Death:
<strong>
Originally posted by Ed:
Maybe the lower range but definitely within the human range. As creation expects.

Dod: This a bit disingenuous Ed. Your entire argument is based on a string of maybes, possiblies and perhaps's. And now you're telling us that Creation "expects" certain things?[/b]
I only used the maybes when discussing flood geology because I am not a geologist and I have limited knowlege of it. But when it comes to creation theory of which I have studied more, then, yes, creation does predict certain things just like any good theory.

Quote:
dod: Care to say what it "expects" the date of the flood was?
As I stated before, the scriptures do not give a definite date of the flood.

Quote:
dod: Or what it "expects" is the answer to the string of questions put to you about predator/prey relationships on the ark, infectious agents and parasites, what species were actually taken on the ark and what they "microevolved" into afterwards, the patterns of biogeography we now observe, etc?
I responded to those on the Noahs ark thread.

[b]
Quote:
dod: And come to think of , how does Creation predict anything about the cranial capacities of Homo erectus skulls?

A shiny new donkey to you Ed if you can answer with using the word "maybe".


Duck!
</strong>
See my post to lp about adaptibility, creation predicts that humans will have variations in order to adapt to different environments so they may have different skull capacities in the process.
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