mark9950

What people will do to keep the false hope alive.

DMB

Magus: I'm still trying to elucidate what the resurrection of the body means to you. See my post above.

DMB

For one thing, I doubt that we know exactly what message the apostles were giving out. For another, if we look at the modern world we see people blowing themselves and others up for very dubious beliefs that don't really stand analysis. Willingness to martyr oneself is no guarantee of the correctness of one's beliefs.

I would suggest that Goebbels is an example of someone who was capable of inventing huge lies but who was not disillusioned by the cause for which he lied and eventually died.

It is a melancholy fact that human beings are not guided by rationality most of the time.

Magus55

But you are forgetting something. Atheists state that the Apostles made up the Gospel. Therefore, they knew for a fact that what they were teaching was a lie. Suicide bombers don't kill themselves for something they know to be a lie.

Spaz

No no, AFAIK, what I've seen atheists say about the writing of the bible is that they don't know who wrote it, nobody knows, and it's nearly impossible to know. No atheist says that the apostles made up the NT because the apostles are fictional characters in the NT. Other people wrote the NT, but with the intention that people would die for it? I dunno.

Biff the unclean

But you are forgetting something. Atheists state that the Apostles made up the Gospel. Therefore, they knew for a fact that what they were teaching was a lie. Suicide bombers don't kill themselves for something they know to be a lie.

So what is your game Magus? You have pulled this same strawman repeatedly. And each time you are corrected.

Atheists DO NOT state that the Apostles made up the Gospels.
Theists DO NOT state that the Apostles made up the Gospels.

The Apostles are only characters in that very same story.

But you know this already. You know it because I and other people on this board have corrected you multiple times. Yet you keep repeating something which you know isn't true. Worse, you keep repeating it to people who know that you know it isn't true. What kind of game are you playing here?
:banghead:

DMB

Magus: what spaz said. We don't know for sure what the apostles believed or preached.

In addition you are missing the point. What people believe isn't black-and-white and rational. It is possible for people to get themselves psyched up into doing things for a cause when they have little reason to believe in its truth. They hope that things are true, rather than having a lot of good reasons to believe that they are true. As in the case of Goebbels, it even appears to be possible for someone to make up lies and believe them.

And don't forget, Magus,

You are still dodging my questions about resurrection

Biff the unclean

My guess DMB, is that he just has a stock list of answers. Which would explain why he repeats them (like Matt 16, or the Dead Apostles Club he's in the midst of repeating) after they have been refuted. It would explain why he is steadfastly not answering your questions…they aren't on his list.

unregistered_user_1

Actually, it's "WinAce's" link, not mine. It's his site. He posts here sometimes!

unregistered_user_1

from Magus55:

Ah, HERE we go! OK, where in HELL does it say that jesus is going to meet some people on top of a mountain as happened in the "transfiguration"?

Also, how in hell can one say that the kingdom had come then if "secular" authority still rules in most places?

And as well, what "kingdom"? Just 2 lousy people showed up to talk with him, and then left!

Why couldn't one say that this "kindgom" arrived at the baptismal scene where god himself actually acknowledges jesus as his son?

Then there's the context of the previous verses where the angles would be coming to help judge people at the establishment of the kingdom. THAT never happened at the transfiguration, now, did it?

After all, unless jesus says he's speaking in a parable, then isn't he supposed to "say what he means and mean what he says"? That's why there are YEC's in the first place, because they take that literal approach with Genesis! Only in THIS case, all of a sudden jesus' words have to be twisted to mean that he's going to meet 2 people on a mountaintop when he NEVER even said that!

Also, what indication of the "tranfiguration" scene indicated the establishment of some "kingdom" and if there was one, why do they say the kingdom has arrived when, quite obviously, it sure as hell isn't here now?

I'm sorry, but the whole "transfiguration" thing just smacks of a dodge to me.