The Other Michael

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People have control over what jobs they take. Should 80% or so of the firemen/police/military (presuming that a large part of the general population will have troubles with alternate sleep cycles) refuse to work midnight/graveyard shift because they are operating at less than peak performance levels? In that case they are being completely willful in controlling their sleep and performance, and being quite moral in not operating at less than peak efficiency.

"I'm sorry your house is on fire Mrs. Jones, but I really need a solid 8 hours of sleep to be able to do a good job of putting the fire out and saving your children, so I suggest you try and hold out until morning".

cheers,
Michael

bocajeff

Hope my neighbors don't get into any trouble while I'm at work. They don't have a bat-signal nor am I Superman. Sucks to be them I guess.

fatherphil

somehow you all seem to be going to great lengths to equate being under the inluence of drugs with other things that do not affect your judgement in nearly the same way.

it is immoral to go to work without enough sleep to function that day. sometimes this is unavoidable. drug and alcohol use is completely avoidable. that is why there is a moral burden on its users.

help to a neighbor could be as simple as driving him to the emergency room.

the moral issue around one's resposibility to the society they benifit from is the key here.

bocajeff, so you're at work but you can't deal with a situation as efficiently there because your brain cells have been affected by the drugs you consumed the night before. does that present a moral issue?

Thalia

I don't think anyone here is saying that it is OK to purposely lessen your abilities when you have responsibilities. In fact, I said that it is definitely not OK. I think where we disagree is that you feel that ever purposely altering your abilities is bad bc you are less able to rise to the occasion of doing good. Most of us feel that no one should have to sacrifce so much such that we can never be indisposed from helping others, that that is too much to ask of anyone. If we were, we would likewise not be able to go off camping in the woods, mountain climbing, or maybe even have children or demanding jobs- all things which are avoidable but which may prevent us from taking our neighbor to the emergency room at the drop of a hat.

Let me ask, if someone is in a situation in which they were otherwise prevented from helping someone anyways, (say stuck in a cave) would there be anything wrong with purposely altering one's consciousness?

fatherphil

again i think this is the crux of the issue. if you have checked out of society, say in a cave or something, then the considerations would be different. but most if not all drug use occurs within a greater society in which sobriety is relied upon.

Sarpedon

fatherphil, my point is that we cant "assume" that they are different. Most drugs work by stimulating the production of "natural" chemicals in the brain and body. What do you mean by a "cosmic benefit" Is this a religous issue? How does someone with a personality disorder (caused by "natural" chemical imbalances in the brain) "cosmically benefitted" by these natural chemicals. My point is, nothing is immoral in and of itself. The only thing that is wrong is that which harms other people.

beth

Phil, when I was a kid I smoked pot because my life sucked and there was no relief in sight. I drank beer on the weekends with the neighbors so I could forget all the hell my mother put me through during the week. This was immoral, but it was a coping mechanism.

After I had my daughter, I was severely afflicted with post partum depression that,at times, went into psychosis. I begged for someone to get me help; I had no vehicle at the time, no one would and they all told me that I simply need to pray more. So.... I took narcotic painkillers to survive. When I was under their influence, I was not curled up into a ball crying. I could actually function and take care of my responsibilities. Under their feel-good effect I did not think of suicide. But one could say that I was immoral for being a functional user and not an addict.

There are a lot of people like me that really see no other choice than to use. It is survival to them. Is it wrong for them to use if it causes them to neglect their duties? Yes. Is it wrong for them to use it when they are behind the wheel? Yes. Is it wrong for them to use it to survive life? No.

Darth Dane

It is not either moral or immoral as I see it.

If you stop eating for a day or two you will notice how food will alter your state of mind. I have done so for three days. When I started eating again my mindset was different than before.

So afai see it, drugs(read: lsd, shrums, peyote and others) allows your state of conciousness to potentially be pushed way out of one's normal bounds. Suddenly auras can be seen, dead people or God's, all of which is mainly taking place in teh head. But what if teh drugs opened up gates that are not to be trifled way, just as yoga claims?
The power of teh mind is awesome and amazing.

It is a way to see th eworld from a different view than we have been accustomed too, however not all can bear a change of reality perception, and they end on phsycic(sp?) wards, because teh power of their mind that they needed, wasn't "activated" before hand...it was just for fun eh?


Could it be? Maybe....




DD - Drug Spliff

Thalia

I agree this is the crux of the issue. The question is, what is the degree of our responsibility? (My cave example was not someone who "checked out" but someone who say spelunking and got stuck, btw.)

You still have not answered to my other examples of things that people do for their own selfish benefit that diminish their ability to be responsible towards their society without "checking out". Like going camping, mountain climbing, having many small children, going on a long walk down a country road, going spelunking, a very demanding job, etc. These are all voluntary things, some purely recreational, that significantly decrease your ability to help your neighbor or family in a time of need. How are they different from drug use?

fatherphil

sarp, cosmic meaning physilogical. is harm limited to direct harm or do we include indirect harm as an immoral thing? if drug use can be proven to harm society would you find it immoral?

blonde, drug use as a means for survival is no solution. i'm not even talking about psychiatric medications. self medicating is not the best solution to your problems even when it seems to be the best option.

darth, i think peyote trips are pretty sad. a real lie to one's own intellect.

thalia, your neighbor is anyone you come across. think of the "good samaritan" story. the camper, climber, mommy, ect.. is still available to the society they interact within.