Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Treacle Worshipper · 04-23-2003, 08:37 AM

IM,
I don't know whether this will be helpful to you or not, but it's the perspective of someone who was cheated on...

You seem to want to have a fling and keep your fiancee. You won't be able to do it. She will find out, one way or another. I found out that my ex was cheating on me through a mutual friend. (It was a similar situation - I had to spend a year abroad because of my degree. We weren't engaged, but we had talked about marriage.)

When (not if, when) your fiancee finds out you've cheated on her, she will lose her trust in you. (As you've discovered yourself, it's very hard to keep trust anyway when your SO is abroad.) You don't have a decade or so of marriage behind you to help rebuild that trust. Chances are, you won't be able to rebuild it & she will tell you to take a hike.

If you're really serious about your relationship with your fiancee, don't go playing around behind her back. And, as a lot of people have said, TALK to her.

~ my 2pennorth ~
TW

brighid · 04-23-2003, 08:37 AM

Here are some excerpts from an article about lying and infidelity:

Quote:

I hate being lied to. Short of violence, it is the worst thing you can do to me. Not because of God, or the Ten Commandments, or any universal moral precepts. The reason that I hate lies is because, like you, I wish to navigate carefully through life, and to do so I must be able to calculate my true position. When you lie to me, you know your position but you have given me false data which obscures mine.

Quote:

Infidelity is of interest for our purposes here because it is involves lying (if we choose to have an open relationship, there is no infidelity, so the phrase itself requires that a lie have occurred). In being unfaithful, I create a situation in which my wife has a false view of reality: she loses her way. She reposes all her trust and love in me based on an understanding that we are exclusive, that all my concern is invested in her, and this understanding is completely false. She is in effect living in a house which may appear solid but has no foundation. I can't imagine a greater fraud than to steal years of someone's life this way. The opportunity costs are tremendous: your spouse had the opportunity to find someone else who was truthful and build a life with him and you robbed her of that.

http://www.spectacle.org/0500/lies.html

Brighid

yguy · 04-23-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by IronMonkey
I dont buy the claim that she is in love with me - I think she, like me, just wants sex. But what if I am wrong - what if she even becomes posessive and decides to wreak my relationship out of jealousy?

Having treated her like a slut, you will hardly have grounds to cry injustice if she acts like one.

HelenM · 04-23-2003, 09:18 AM

IM,

Do you think any part of you is thinking that having sex with this other woman would be a way to get you out of your engagement?

Are you sure you want to be engaged to your fiancee?

I'm just asking.

Fwiw, I was a bit startled by you writing "I dont want to kill you now - I dont know what would happen if we were given a choice to fight to the death now do I?" but that's ok. I'll assume you meant it simply as a strong illustration of a point you were making and not against me personally in any way.

Helen

Ted Hoffman · 04-23-2003, 10:36 AM

Helen, sorry about the violent analogy. Of course I wouldnt want to kill you - what I meant to say was that in dire straits morality might take a hike...of course in the face of the tidal wave of "dont do it" advice (much to Keysers delight) that might not apply anymore. Maybe as Keyser says, I am rationalizing and desperately looking for one slightest sign of approval and I will be off with a cloud of dust behind me...

So anyway, I think I have got plenty of good advice here although I would suggest you people slow down a bit with the judgements. Jesus, I have been crucified already! and I havent even touched! have you just been reading the laws of Moses? Can't a man entertain bad thoughts - even for a moment? (thou shall not covet your neighbours wife)

Lets see if I get them straight:

nermal: I shouldnt have sex with one woman while planning my life with another.
blondgodess: I need to decide on whether I can continue with this relationship indefinitely. She is selfish to expect me to continue like this. Need 2 talk 2 her.
brighid: I need 2 get a woman who can meet my physical and emotional needs.
brighid: if I made a promise of fidelity, it'd be immoral of me to break it secretly.
brighid: it'd be naive to expect my finacee to satisfy my needs in marriage if she cant do so now: marriage wont change her.
HM: since I can do sth my fiencee finds unacceptable, I am engaged to the wrong person.
HM: I should tell my fiancee I am contemplating cheating on her (assuming I will survive the ensuing disaster).
HM: If this woman can betray her husband, she can betray me too. (I think she would have something to lose too if she betrayed me - in case I go that far)
HM: If my fiancee is unhappy with me (in the unlikely event that she finds out) I will not be happy either.
HM: Its unfair of me to change my morals drastically without notifying my fiancee.
Keyser: I shouldnt Do do it and I should talk to her NOW! I can try the stoic thingy. Fasting sexually.
brighid: If I cant be trusted and am hypocritical, I am not ready to marry.
Brighid:its immoral to deceive another and pretend to be what I am not.
brighid: why should I expect her to be faithful if I am not? (And something about violating a social contract)
brighid: if she agrees to marry me based on a false picture, I will have won her through false advertising.
keyser: I should get up and go for a blowjob (now this is funny) then come back when I can think straight.
keyser: and it's more from a sense of abandonment by her, the lack of her wanting to make you her sun to orbit, that is getting you. You are simply finding the easiest chink in the armour to stab yourself and her at the same time. And you WILL allow her to find out, because you are trying to hurt her at the same time (I think this is it - I might be having self-destructive thoughts)
brighid: (explains to helen that I have no violent thoughts/ threats meant for her - thanks brighid)
Daisy: I should not do it with the woman coz she is in love with me. I shouldnt underestimate her needs and desire.
fatherpill: I should find someone whose needs are more compatible with mine.
TW: I cant have a fling and keep my relationship. As soon as I am discovered, I will be told to take a hike.
yguy: Having treated her like a slut, I will hardly have grounds to cry injustice if she acts like one.
HM: Maybe I lack the guts to break it off and I am looking for a spineless way to break my engagement

Good advice. Hmmm......

Decisions decisions, decisions....

keyser_soze · 04-23-2003, 10:44 AM

No delight in it, I've been there, I just want to save you the pain amigo. I empathize greatly, and will be here if you need to talk to someone. We are not judging, we are simply showing you what you don't want to see, mostly because you ALREADY KNOW it to be true. I know when I was on the borderline, I was looking for any bit of approval that I shouldn't be treated like I was...that I should be crying "foul" and free to do what I wanted to do.

Daisy · 04-23-2003, 12:39 PM

To be very lonely and desperately horny is no joke...you do have my sincere sympathy.

As does the other woman...

I have less sympathy for your fiancee (and the husband) because it is so much harder to be the one left behind than the one who is off in another land - by choice.

Good luck.

Ted Hoffman · 04-23-2003, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daisy
To be very lonely and desperately horny is no joke...you do have my sincere sympathy.

As does the other woman...

I have less sympathy for your fiancee (and the husband) because it is so much harder to be the one left behind than the one who is off in another land - by choice.

Good luck.

Thanks daisy and Keyser.
I think I have reached a decision.
You guys have been very helpful. I think I am blessed to be part of this community

.

I almost lost faith.

In reason. In morality.

Ted Hoffman · 04-24-2003, 12:03 AM

I feel so sad

.
I dont believe in astrology shit but look what I got from Astrocenter:

Quote:

Your Daily Horoscope for April 24, 2003

Dear JACOB,
You might experience a turning point in a relationship, JACOB. Perhaps you and a friend will have a parting of ways. Although you respect and like this person, you could find that you are heading in different directions. You might not be as compatible as you once were. Try not to worry about releasing this relationship. Before long, a new friendship will take its place, and you'll feel a strong sense of connection to that person

keyser_soze · 04-24-2003, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by IronMonkey
I feel so sad .
I dont believe in astrology shit but look what I got from Astrocenter:

Well, besides the use of BIG_OBVIOUS_PROBABILITIES, a-la-prophecy that makes such things contrived piles of warm patties...

If you have to put some thought into it, take it a step further, and try to contend whether that means your girlfriend or your girlfriend....

Personally, I know you are seeing signs in everything, best to come back to the rational mindset and ANALYZE everything. Ignore the B.S. that is no better than religious quackery, and try to REASON it out.

04-23-2003, 10:36 AM	#35
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Helen, sorry about the violent analogy. Of course I wouldnt want to kill you - what I meant to say was that in dire straits morality might take a hike...of course in the face of the tidal wave of "dont do it" advice (much to Keysers delight) that might not apply anymore. Maybe as Keyser says, I am rationalizing and desperately looking for one slightest sign of approval and I will be off with a cloud of dust behind me... So anyway, I think I have got plenty of good advice here although I would suggest you people slow down a bit with the judgements. Jesus, I have been crucified already! and I havent even touched! have you just been reading the laws of Moses? Can't a man entertain bad thoughts - even for a moment? (thou shall not covet your neighbours wife) Lets see if I get them straight: nermal: I shouldnt have sex with one woman while planning my life with another. blondgodess: I need to decide on whether I can continue with this relationship indefinitely. She is selfish to expect me to continue like this. Need 2 talk 2 her. brighid: I need 2 get a woman who can meet my physical and emotional needs. brighid: if I made a promise of fidelity, it'd be immoral of me to break it secretly. brighid: it'd be naive to expect my finacee to satisfy my needs in marriage if she cant do so now: marriage wont change her. HM: since I can do sth my fiencee finds unacceptable, I am engaged to the wrong person. HM: I should tell my fiancee I am contemplating cheating on her (assuming I will survive the ensuing disaster). HM: If this woman can betray her husband, she can betray me too. (I think she would have something to lose too if she betrayed me - in case I go that far) HM: If my fiancee is unhappy with me (in the unlikely event that she finds out) I will not be happy either. HM: Its unfair of me to change my morals drastically without notifying my fiancee. Keyser: I shouldnt Do do it and I should talk to her NOW! I can try the stoic thingy. Fasting sexually. brighid: If I cant be trusted and am hypocritical, I am not ready to marry. Brighid:its immoral to deceive another and pretend to be what I am not. brighid: why should I expect her to be faithful if I am not? (And something about violating a social contract) brighid: if she agrees to marry me based on a false picture, I will have won her through false advertising. keyser: I should get up and go for a blowjob (now this is funny) then come back when I can think straight. keyser: and it's more from a sense of abandonment by her, the lack of her wanting to make you her sun to orbit, that is getting you. You are simply finding the easiest chink in the armour to stab yourself and her at the same time. And you WILL allow her to find out, because you are trying to hurt her at the same time (I think this is it - I might be having self-destructive thoughts) brighid: (explains to helen that I have no violent thoughts/ threats meant for her - thanks brighid) Daisy: I should not do it with the woman coz she is in love with me. I shouldnt underestimate her needs and desire. fatherpill: I should find someone whose needs are more compatible with mine. TW: I cant have a fling and keep my relationship. As soon as I am discovered, I will be told to take a hike. yguy: Having treated her like a slut, I will hardly have grounds to cry injustice if she acts like one. HM: Maybe I lack the guts to break it off and I am looking for a spineless way to break my engagement Good advice. Hmmm...... Decisions decisions, decisions....

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04-23-2003, 08:37 AM	#31
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	IM, I don't know whether this will be helpful to you or not, but it's the perspective of someone who was cheated on... You seem to want to have a fling and keep your fiancee. You won't be able to do it. She will find out, one way or another. I found out that my ex was cheating on me through a mutual friend. (It was a similar situation - I had to spend a year abroad because of my degree. We weren't engaged, but we had talked about marriage.) When (not if, when) your fiancee finds out you've cheated on her, she will lose her trust in you. (As you've discovered yourself, it's very hard to keep trust anyway when your SO is abroad.) You don't have a decade or so of marriage behind you to help rebuild that trust. Chances are, you won't be able to rebuild it & she will tell you to take a hike. If you're really serious about your relationship with your fiancee, don't go playing around behind her back. And, as a lot of people have said, TALK to her. ~ my 2pennorth ~ TW

04-23-2003, 09:18 AM	#34
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	IM, Do you think any part of you is thinking that having sex with this other woman would be a way to get you out of your engagement? Are you sure you want to be engaged to your fiancee? I'm just asking. Fwiw, I was a bit startled by you writing "I dont want to kill you now - I dont know what would happen if we were given a choice to fight to the death now do I?" but that's ok. I'll assume you meant it simply as a strong illustration of a point you were making and not against me personally in any way. Helen

04-23-2003, 10:44 AM	#36
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	No delight in it, I've been there, I just want to save you the pain amigo. I empathize greatly, and will be here if you need to talk to someone. We are not judging, we are simply showing you what you don't want to see, mostly because you ALREADY KNOW it to be true. I know when I was on the borderline, I was looking for any bit of approval that I shouldn't be treated like I was...that I should be crying "foul" and free to do what I wanted to do.

04-23-2003, 12:39 PM	#37
Daisy Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Halfway out the door... Posts: 788	To be very lonely and desperately horny is no joke...you do have my sincere sympathy. As does the other woman... I have less sympathy for your fiancee (and the husband) because it is so much harder to be the one left behind than the one who is off in another land - by choice. Good luck.

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