Ronin

My mother was a Roman Catholic nun...my grandmother, the daughter of a Euchee warrior shaman.

I am a police officer and a violent crimes detective.

I've held dying infants in my arms...and tried everything from prayer to a lucky rabbit's foot.

Your nonsensical supernaturalistic hocum is pure bullshit...and, I assert, that you know it.

Muffinstuffer

You enjoy the company of one who is 'rapidly losing credibility?' How is that? Let me go down to the very bottom part. My ORIGINAL post was as follows:

Let me say right now that if I had said, right up front, "I should point out that I am getting this story secondhand, from my wife" it might make everyone here feel a little better. Anyways, continuing on. You said:

First things first. It is obvious that I should have said "This story comes from my wife, and is secondhand information...I will have to go back and verify that it is 100% correct." However, my intention was NOT to say it DEFINITELY was a miracle, because my ORIGINAL POST said, and again I quote,

Second, I'm not 'recanting.' I'm admitting that it is indeed possible that the information I have is wrong. I'm saying that the story came secondhand, from my wife, and as such, there is definitely the possibility for error, and I will have no problem saying so if there has been.

But the entire point of my post was NOT to advocate prayer ONLY as a remedy for sickness, nor was it to say "This is definitely a miracle, y'all! I know it for sure" because I SAID "Maybe, maybe not" in the ORIGINAL POST. My original point was to say that there are those who could receive 100% proof that there was no REAL means (as opposed to spiritual or whatever) by which one was healed, and would STILL find a way to NOT attribute it to a miracle. That was, essentially, the last sentence of my original post concerning the whole Hep-C episode.

If I ever do not have all the facts correct, or am mistaken, or misspeak, I sincerely apologize, and I affirm here and now that I will make every effort to obtain as much evidence and proof as I can concerning things like this in the future. But I would ask that people not rush to put words in my mouth.

Muffinstuffer

Yeah, we know what we believe is total bull$h!t. But we believe in it because it is just so much FUN.

Ronin

Dying isn't fun, suffering needlessly based upon some fairy tale isn't fun...especially when there are real medical doctors about.

Muffinstuffer

Argh. Argh, I say! :banghead:

I refer you once again to a comment I posted above:

Let me make this clear. While I believe that Christians are CALLED to pray, and while YES, I DO believe that prayer ALONE can heal, I do NOT believe that we should NOT take people who are sick to doctors to seek medical advice, because I believe that's what doctors are HERE FOR.

PLEASE tell me you see me typing this.

*throws arms wide and screams "I like doctors! I really do!"*

Ronin

I enjoy your company because you have remained, that means that you are reading my posts...at least briefly...and that is a good thing.

Do you not find your wife trustworthy?

Why propose something, of which you were not certain, to support your supernaturalistic point?

So, then you do now state, specifically, that this was not a confirmed miracle or to be taken even as implied evidence that such a miracle took place?

Excellent. The you have shown us that you can be deceptive and then fully explanatory only upon rational examination.

That is what Christianity is all about...this sort of implied crap.

Welcome to truth.

But it is only now revealed as an implied and unverifiable piece of bullshit, therefore, not valid in anyone's mind except the credulous (www.m-w.com "credulity"...trust me, it'll help you).

You put the words out in the most deceptive of ways and were called on it.

Seek out the truth and don't take any of us for fools or Christians...we expect more accountability than your dreamworld.

Ronin

If you DO believe prayer ALONE can heal, Muffinstuffer, then WHY take the sick and suffering to real medical doctors?

Is your Christian mindsnare so tight that you can not perceive this contradiction?

BadBadBad

There's corollaries to that one too of course:

And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. Mt 10:21

And let's get the whole prophesy in there too, because it's definitely relevant:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Mt 10:34-37

Oh so true!

And of course we all know there's more too:

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Mt 19:29

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Lk 14:26

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mt 10:14-15

Oh and what a wonderful impact this has had on peace and civility throughout history:

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Mt 12:30


Yeah, history sure shows what Jesus and the NT has done towards peace and tolerance.

Muffinstuffer

Yes, I am reading your posts, and as I have said, short of someone flat out telling me to get lost, I will remain.

I will address these next posts together.

First, I do in fact find my wife trustworthy, but she does make mistakes. As do I.

Second, you're absolutely right. My original point was to illustrate NOT that miracles do not exist, or that we Christians can be sneakily deceptive, but that I could have 100% 'proof for a miracle' and it would not matter to some. But given the fact that I haven't confirmed/verified everything she has told me myself, it won't be much of an illustration if it is not 100% proven, will it? And for that I apologize. However.....

Third, I didn't come here intending to be deceptive. Think what you wish about me - I know that you will anyways - but my original point was not to prove to you the validity of the whole situation. It was to illustrate a point.

Fourth, how about showing the least bit of civility? Never once did I take you for a fool, nor anyone else here, and I hardly think that calling me deceptive or that saying Christianity is all about implied crap, or that any of the other comments about Christianity or myself are productive or positive in any way, shape or form. If you HONESTLY believe that I INTENDED to lie and deceive, then say so, and I'll apologize for making you think that, but I will not apologize for intentionally BEING deceptive, nor will I apologize for being a liar, becuase I intended to do neither.

Ronin

Thanks, brettc ~

I still await the reconciliation that even the most liberal of christians can provide given this primary source of Jesus' alleged perfect goodness.

My Christian friends...Sabine, Helen, seebs...please provide the connection.

Btw ~ I respect you as humans, but really do sincerely want you to provide a forthright answer.