Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gemma Therese · 12-17-2002, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10:
<strong>

This is incorrect.

Diocesan priests and those of a religious order are not mutually exclusive. Many (if not most) Dominican, Franciscan and Jesuit preists are also diocesan priests.

Cardinal Law is a Jesuit priest, and Jesuits do take a vow of poverty (along with chastity and obediance)

<a href="http://www.jesuits-chi.org/vocations/formation.htm" target="_blank">The Jesuits</a>

Only some orders (Baslians, for instance) do not head a church, but rather teach or do missionary work.</strong>

Where is your source that Law is a Jesuit? Please include your link, I'm very interested in seeing it.

Diocesan priests take vows of celibacy and obedience to their bishop.

Gemma Therese

Wyz_sub10 · 12-17-2002, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
1. All priests that are convicted of child rape or molestation will spend the rest of their lives in prison (possibly with mandatory castration--the jury's still out on that).

No problems with the first point, but let's not get too barbaric here.

Quote:

2. If it is found that any priest/bishop/etc. is in any way, shape, or form hiding information pertaining to child abuse by priests, then said priests who are hiding the information will spend the rest of their lives in prison,

I wouldn't necessarily be that automatic. We don't apply that penatly to murderers. Of course, if the priest was *convicted* then hidden there should be some penalty.

Quote:

and whatever church(es) that they had control over will be IMMEDIATELY siezed by the government.

Why? I would rather the individual be punished, and that individuals who collaborate be punished. The church, itself, or the property is of no consequence. The government has no right to take my house just because the person renting it is arrested for murder.

Quote:

3. If the Pope disagrees, then that's too bad. If necessary, the US should invade Vatican city to ensure that 1. and 2. can be carried out.

Well, that's not going to happen. The Vatican is a sovereign state. If a German wanted for molestation hid in the US, you wouldn't expect Germany to bust in the US, against their wishes, and get the individual. There needs to be collaboration at that level. The US can, however, devise some way of ensuring that collaboration happens. If the Vatican refuses extradition, the US should have some recourse (but not invasion).

lunachick · 12-17-2002, 11:26 AM

Holy smoke, Gemma. We have here a paedophile who should be in jail. He has hurt many young people's lives, all with what could almost be considered the blessing of the church, given their protection of these types of awful men and their child-molesting ways - and all you can do is argue little irrelevant details about the criminal. What the fuck is the matter with you?

Mageth · 12-17-2002, 11:37 AM

We have here a paedophile who should be in jail.

Hold on a minute. Cardinal Law hasn't been accused of paedophilia, just of (apparently) Vatican-sanctioned protection of paedophile priests.

Not that that in itself is not bad, it's just that we need to get our facts straight.

Tom Sawyer · 12-17-2002, 11:48 AM

Law was using his position as the cardinal of the church to shelter these criminals and let them continue their activities unmolested (pun) by the authorities. That makes the church guilty as an organization and why I agree with Goliath that its assests should be seized.

Law wasn't acting as an individual here; he was acting as an officer of the Boston Archdiocese and using his official position to aid and abet people who were raping children. The Archdiocese as a whole is therefore responsible. Even though Law didn't doing any raping himself, he and the organization he represents are both guilty and should be run out of business.

The Admiral · 12-17-2002, 11:59 AM

All this emotion over only the second greatest scandal of the Catholic church.

The Admiral

Gemma Therese · 12-17-2002, 12:09 PM

Wyz_sub10, I'm waiting.

Gemma Therese

Mageth · 12-17-2002, 12:10 PM

Even though Law didn't doing any raping himself, he and the organization he represents are both guilty...

I agree, if by "organization" you mean the Church Hierarchy.

...and should be run out of business.

I don't think it's possible to run the RC church out of business over this. It is a major PR problem for them, which is ironic because that seems to have been their cocern from the get-go (instead of the well-being of their "flock", which is where their concerns should have been, and if their concern would have been there from the beginning, they wouldn't have such a PR problem as they do now).

I definitely think the individuals (e.g. Law, etc.) who participated in active child abuse or the "passive" protection of the abusers should be prosecuted to the full extent possible. I don't think it's possible to seize the Church's property.

Tom Sawyer · 12-17-2002, 12:16 PM

Quote:

I don't think it's possible to seize the Church's property.

I don't see why not. If a company engages in illegal activities, its assets can be seized and sold off to pay damages. The Boston Archdiocese is a company like any other, despite all it's protestations otherwise. It has acted exactly the same way as any other corporation has when illegal activity was perpetrated by its members and covered things up to avoid their prosecution. They've proven themselves to not be special in any way and should therefore be treated the same as anyone else.

The Admiral · 12-17-2002, 12:22 PM

Gemma

Can't you guess? The greatest scandal of the Catholic church is the establishment of the Catholic church.

The Admiral

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12-17-2002, 11:26 AM	#13
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	Holy smoke, Gemma. We have here a paedophile who should be in jail. He has hurt many young people's lives, all with what could almost be considered the blessing of the church, given their protection of these types of awful men and their child-molesting ways - and all you can do is argue little irrelevant details about the criminal. What the fuck is the matter with you?

12-17-2002, 11:37 AM	#14
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	We have here a paedophile who should be in jail. Hold on a minute. Cardinal Law hasn't been accused of paedophilia, just of (apparently) Vatican-sanctioned protection of paedophile priests. Not that that in itself is not bad, it's just that we need to get our facts straight.

12-17-2002, 11:48 AM	#15
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	Law was using his position as the cardinal of the church to shelter these criminals and let them continue their activities unmolested (pun) by the authorities. That makes the church guilty as an organization and why I agree with Goliath that its assests should be seized. Law wasn't acting as an individual here; he was acting as an officer of the Boston Archdiocese and using his official position to aid and abet people who were raping children. The Archdiocese as a whole is therefore responsible. Even though Law didn't doing any raping himself, he and the organization he represents are both guilty and should be run out of business.

12-17-2002, 11:59 AM	#16
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	All this emotion over only the second greatest scandal of the Catholic church. The Admiral

12-17-2002, 12:09 PM	#17
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	Wyz_sub10, I'm waiting. Gemma Therese

12-17-2002, 12:10 PM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Even though Law didn't doing any raping himself, he and the organization he represents are both guilty... I agree, if by "organization" you mean the Church Hierarchy. ...and should be run out of business. I don't think it's possible to run the RC church out of business over this. It is a major PR problem for them, which is ironic because that seems to have been their cocern from the get-go (instead of the well-being of their "flock", which is where their concerns should have been, and if their concern would have been there from the beginning, they wouldn't have such a PR problem as they do now). I definitely think the individuals (e.g. Law, etc.) who participated in active child abuse or the "passive" protection of the abusers should be prosecuted to the full extent possible. I don't think it's possible to seize the Church's property.

12-17-2002, 12:22 PM	#20
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	Gemma Can't you guess? The greatest scandal of the Catholic church is the establishment of the Catholic church. The Admiral

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