Freethought & Rationalism Archive

christ-on-a-stick · 02-17-2003, 06:53 PM

luvluv,

Unfortunately while I am vacation (til Friday) I am not able to respond at length to the most recent posts, although I will try my best to "catch up" upon my return.

In the meantime, however, I wanted to share with you an essay that a friend of mine in the porn biz (a he - producer and director) wrote briefly outlining some of this thoughts on the ethics of pornography (particulary from his POV as the "distributor/purveyor). *note to mods - this material is not copyrighted so hopefully I am not breaking any rules by copying it here, but I'd rather not link to his website).

********
Before I produced my first piece of pornography I searched the web for legitimate reasons as to why I should not do so - I wanted no part of porn if it was going to be damaging. I studied the Meese Commission Report and read many papers posted by moralists. All of the anti-pornography arguments I found can be boiled down to the following: 1) hand-me-down morality whose main roots are in dark-age religious fanaticism, and 2) partners (mostly women) who see the images as competition.

I don�t believe in the same religion (Christianity) that most of our country�s citizens believe in. But I respect their beliefs and never try to convert them to my way of thinking. Many of them are less tolerant, however, and would like the government to mandate that all of us live according to THEIR wants, thoughts and wishes. Well, they need not consume pornography if it offends them, but the rest of us should not be forced into living according to their personal views. As long as a person treats others well we do not have the right to interfere in their lives. Such interference smacks of the same selfish, totalitarian attitude dictated by the Trade Center terrorists and the Taliban. In short, it�s disrespect for the beliefs, rights and liberties of others.

A family�s hope for every young man and woman is that they become happily married. We all agree that a positive part of that marriage is an active and pleasurable sexual relationship. Pornography is nothing more than a publicly-available portrayal of what we all hope all of us are doing. It seems somewhat peculiar that we want terrific sex lives but are afraid to have someone else show what they are doing. What I find to be even more peculiar is that the people who criticize pornography seem to have no qualm about placing their children in front of television sets and subjecting them to night after night of violence � something we all agree should not be a part of any relationship or life. I have had a nearly life-long policy of refraining from anything that supports television shows or movies that contain any violence. I will not pay to see a Stalone or Schwarzenegger movie. To me, repeatedly showing violence to a child is much worse than a mature person watching a couple making love on a television screen. Still, I would not try to ban the violence-themed films so that others can�t see them.

The media (Dr. Laura, for example) continually bashes males for not being more romantic and sensitive to females. But females are rarely criticized for not being as sexually adventurous as males. Men and women are different. Just as females have their unique set of relationship and sexual needs, men are entitled to theirs. I�ve never understood why males put up with being bashed for their natural urges. Why do they put up with moralists who tell some unfortunate guy with no love relationship that the only way he should get sexual stimulation is through marriage? And, while we�re here, it�s interesting to note that the moralist is usually in a relationship and isn�t undergoing the sexual starvation that the person they're preaching to is going through.

I�ve concluded that the vast majority of mature individuals are not harmed by pornography and often benefit from it, the exception being the person who sneaks pornography behind his or her partner�s back. In the case of a couple, pornography is best when both partners enjoy it. And, as with any interest or passion, it�s possible for the depth of involvement to be detrimental.

On the positive side, pornography can jump-start a bored marriage or provide deserving sexual gratification to a single person who is not in a relationship.

This will surprise you � and I don�t understand it myself � but I do not consume pornography, even when I�m not in a relationship. But I can see that it is truly a harmless pleasure for many fine folks with good hearts and curious minds.

-R.
********

Just something I thought you might find interesting "food for thought", luv... til next week, when I tear into your most recent rash of posts with vacation-renewed ferocity!!!

Valmorian · 02-19-2003, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv

The point I was trying to make is that we all do hold sex to be important and valuable for SOME reason other than simply pleasure.

ALL of us? Without exception? EVERY time?

Hell, I hold certain dinners to be important and valuable to me, depending upon whom I am dining with. That doesn't mean I consider dinner to be 'special' in and of itself.

Quote:

Most people (women especially) would be more hurt at having been used for sex than at having been used for some triffling material thing.

So those people can simply not partake of casual sex, and not indulge in the use of pornography.

Quote:

I do understand that people can enjoy non-committal sex. People enjoy smoking. That doesn't mean that it is good for them or that it is the best decision they can make with their lives.

People also enjoy tennis. You're assuming that non-committal sex is more similar to a known harmful activity than a non-harmful one. This is called begging the question.

Quote:

I can disagree with something that people enjoy. I can even say so, and give reasons for it.

Perhaps it would just be wiser to not participate. I don't go around telling people they shouldn't enjoy country music, even though I dislike it.

Quote:

We agree, then, that SOME expressions of sexuality can be shall we say degrading, even between consensual partners. (Infidelity, for example).

I would hardly call infidelity degrading. Dishonest to your current partner perhaps, but that's a separate issue.

Quote:

b) Actually, I do have the right to tell you that you shouldn't be using your own body for pleasure, even if you are comfortable doing so, and for profit. You, furthermore, have the right to tell me where I can stick my advice. I can point this right out to you in the Constitution if you want.

Yup, you sure can say that, but then to get all flustered when you're rediculed for it seems rather silly.

Quote:

The essence of my argument is that even if the percentage of women who are abused is low, the volume of porn consumed nearly guarantees that some of the women a porn consumer sees will be victims of abuse.

I'm not sure why this should be a concern. By this argument, you contribute to the abuse of women and children to some extent regardless of WHAT you buy.

Quote:

If I walked up to ANYONE IN THIS DISCUSSION tommorow, and offered them 50 bucks to take 15 minutes to help me out with a logic puzzle, TO A PERSON you would probably all do it.

If I walked up to ANYONE IN THIS DISCUSSION tommorow, and offered them 50 bucks to take 15 minutes to have sex with me, to a person you would probably say no.

That depends. What if I don't like logic puzzles? I might refuse the first. What if I think you're particularly attractive and safe to sleep with? I'd probably accept the second.

Quote:

So if renting out one's brain is absolutely no different from renting out your body, why would most of you help me with the logic puzzle and yet decline to sleep with me (even on principle, even if you were guaranteed that you would enjoy it)?

Because you're just assuming the answer without finding out if it's true, perhaps?

Quote:

Beyond that, the point was that a) one could not be sure that the person you were watching was not one of these abused women and that b) statistically you are basically guaranteed to have seen some of these abused women over a lifetime (say, 20 years) of porn watching.

Every time you purchase a product from a company which indulges in unethical business practices leading to abuse of people you do exactly the same thing.

Philosoft · 02-19-2003, 03:17 PM

Quoth luvluv:
The essence of my argument is that even if the percentage of women who are abused is low, the volume of porn consumed nearly guarantees that some of the women a porn consumer sees will be victims of abuse.

Valmorian's passing mention of tennis prompted me to consider the implications of this. By your reasoning, we should also do the following:

Refrain from watching women's tennis, because the number of pro tennis players guarantees that some of them will be shamelessly exploited by their parents.
Refrain from watching pro football/baseball/hockey/etc. because the sheer number of players guarantees that some of them will abuse steroids.

You can probably see there are numerous other examples.

Valmorian · 02-19-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft
You can probably see there are numerous other examples.

Indeed it is hardly possible to refrain from indirectly causing suffering and abuse of every living person/animal on the planet. This hardly means you condone it.

Harumi · 02-20-2003, 07:38 AM

Personally, if you feel guilty every time you view porn, then don't view it. It's as simple as that.

Large companies, such as GM, Nike, and GAP, exploit third world countries to make a profit. Does that mean that we shouldn't buy their products?

Some people find it disturbing, and don't buy it. Others don't care and do.

I think it all comes down to personal choice. Just don't force your opinion on others and act morally superior because of some choice you make.

christ-on-a-stick · 02-24-2003, 11:00 AM

Greetings luvluv. I have returned to this thread as promised. So there

However, in wading through the posts since I've been away, it occurs to me that to continue may be an excercise in futility.

I think we both know that I'm not going to say "y'know luvluv, you're right! I hereby renounce porn and realize that sex is a beautiful act but only between a loving married man and woman. And to show my remorse for contributing for so long to the objectification and abuse of defenseless girls and women I'm going to sell my house and car to get back all the dirty money I made and use it to start a home for Wayward Porn Actresses to help them escape the evil porn industry!!! Thank you for showing me the light..."

And you're not going to say, "y'know Lauri, you're right! I realize that my own issues with pornography have tainted my ability to look at the issue objectively, and I now realize that porn itself is not immoral and if I'm concerned about some females being abused or coerced I should just abstain personally or maybe even start a nonprofit organization dedicated to weeding out the abuse and coercion! Also I've come to accept that sex is not some sacred special act, although it can be, it can also be purely recreational and devoid of romantic love or commitment and not have a negative effect on the casual-sex-havers!!! Thank you for showing me the light..."

Now before you get your knickers in a twist

please don't worry about dissecting my frivolity to demonstrate my ridiculous strawman-building; I'm just kiddin' with ya and it has been an interesting discussion but I don't see at this point if there is any point in continuing. I'm going to keep making pornographic films and enjoy myself until I put myself out to pasture. In fact I'm going to make a phone call to schedule a shoot right now. And I am certain that you will continue to abstain from viewing pornography and be certain in your convictions that it is immoral to do so. And feel guilty when you masturbate.

So, ready for that "Is masturbation wrong" thread? I'd be happy to start it!

christ-on-a-stick · 02-26-2003, 03:04 PM

Just a *BUMP* for luvluv...

luv, just don't want you to be under the mistaken impression that I "abandoned" this topic. Look forward to your thoughts (i.e. shall we continue or ???...)

Michaelson · 02-26-2003, 03:33 PM

But.. you said that this post was an exercise in futility, and that you'd never make luvluv see the light, and that luvluv would never make you see the light, and that as such you're ready for a whole new thread with a different topic...

My guess is that's why you didn't get a response.

christ-on-a-stick · 02-26-2003, 03:49 PM

Oh... perhaps you are correct, Michaelson, I guess I was just waiting for a confirmation/agreement or something....

I guess I'll wait a few days *then* start that other thread then!!!

luvluv · 03-04-2003, 05:48 PM

I haven't been on in like a week, that's why you haven't gotten a response.

This may be a dead horse, though. I think we can all see that I'm right and you're wrong.

I'm gonna be out of commision until about Tuesday, so don't look for me before then.

02-19-2003, 03:17 PM	#333
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Quoth luvluv: The essence of my argument is that even if the percentage of women who are abused is low, the volume of porn consumed nearly guarantees that some of the women a porn consumer sees will be victims of abuse. Valmorian's passing mention of tennis prompted me to consider the implications of this. By your reasoning, we should also do the following: Refrain from watching women's tennis, because the number of pro tennis players guarantees that some of them will be shamelessly exploited by their parents. Refrain from watching pro football/baseball/hockey/etc. because the sheer number of players guarantees that some of them will abuse steroids. You can probably see there are numerous other examples.

02-26-2003, 03:04 PM	#337
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	LUVLUV Just a BUMP for luvluv... luv, just don't want you to be under the mistaken impression that I "abandoned" this topic. Look forward to your thoughts (i.e. shall we continue or ???...)

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02-17-2003, 06:53 PM	#331
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	luvluv, Unfortunately while I am vacation (til Friday) I am not able to respond at length to the most recent posts, although I will try my best to "catch up" upon my return. In the meantime, however, I wanted to share with you an essay that a friend of mine in the porn biz (a he - producer and director) wrote briefly outlining some of this thoughts on the ethics of pornography (particulary from his POV as the "distributor/purveyor). note to mods - this material is not copyrighted so hopefully I am not breaking any rules by copying it here, but I'd rather not link to his website). ***** Before I produced my first piece of pornography I searched the web for legitimate reasons as to why I should not do so - I wanted no part of porn if it was going to be damaging. I studied the Meese Commission Report and read many papers posted by moralists. All of the anti-pornography arguments I found can be boiled down to the following: 1) hand-me-down morality whose main roots are in dark-age religious fanaticism, and 2) partners (mostly women) who see the images as competition. I don�t believe in the same religion (Christianity) that most of our country�s citizens believe in. But I respect their beliefs and never try to convert them to my way of thinking. Many of them are less tolerant, however, and would like the government to mandate that all of us live according to THEIR wants, thoughts and wishes. Well, they need not consume pornography if it offends them, but the rest of us should not be forced into living according to their personal views. As long as a person treats others well we do not have the right to interfere in their lives. Such interference smacks of the same selfish, totalitarian attitude dictated by the Trade Center terrorists and the Taliban. In short, it�s disrespect for the beliefs, rights and liberties of others. A family�s hope for every young man and woman is that they become happily married. We all agree that a positive part of that marriage is an active and pleasurable sexual relationship. Pornography is nothing more than a publicly-available portrayal of what we all hope all of us are doing. It seems somewhat peculiar that we want terrific sex lives but are afraid to have someone else show what they are doing. What I find to be even more peculiar is that the people who criticize pornography seem to have no qualm about placing their children in front of television sets and subjecting them to night after night of violence � something we all agree should not be a part of any relationship or life. I have had a nearly life-long policy of refraining from anything that supports television shows or movies that contain any violence. I will not pay to see a Stalone or Schwarzenegger movie. To me, repeatedly showing violence to a child is much worse than a mature person watching a couple making love on a television screen. Still, I would not try to ban the violence-themed films so that others can�t see them. The media (Dr. Laura, for example) continually bashes males for not being more romantic and sensitive to females. But females are rarely criticized for not being as sexually adventurous as males. Men and women are different. Just as females have their unique set of relationship and sexual needs, men are entitled to theirs. I�ve never understood why males put up with being bashed for their natural urges. Why do they put up with moralists who tell some unfortunate guy with no love relationship that the only way he should get sexual stimulation is through marriage? And, while we�re here, it�s interesting to note that the moralist is usually in a relationship and isn�t undergoing the sexual starvation that the person they're preaching to is going through. I�ve concluded that the vast majority of mature individuals are not harmed by pornography and often benefit from it, the exception being the person who sneaks pornography behind his or her partner�s back. In the case of a couple, pornography is best when both partners enjoy it. And, as with any interest or passion, it�s possible for the depth of involvement to be detrimental. On the positive side, pornography can jump-start a bored marriage or provide deserving sexual gratification to a single person who is not in a relationship. This will surprise you � and I don�t understand it myself � but I do not consume pornography, even when I�m not in a relationship. But I can see that it is truly a harmless pleasure for many fine folks with good hearts and curious minds. -R. ****** Just something I thought you might find interesting "food for thought", luv... til next week, when I tear into your most recent rash of posts with vacation-renewed ferocity!!!

02-20-2003, 07:38 AM	#335
Harumi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 3,184	Personally, if you feel guilty every time you view porn, then don't view it. It's as simple as that. Large companies, such as GM, Nike, and GAP, exploit third world countries to make a profit. Does that mean that we shouldn't buy their products? Some people find it disturbing, and don't buy it. Others don't care and do. I think it all comes down to personal choice. Just don't force your opinion on others and act morally superior because of some choice you make.

02-24-2003, 11:00 AM	#336
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Greetings luvluv. I have returned to this thread as promised. So there However, in wading through the posts since I've been away, it occurs to me that to continue may be an excercise in futility. I think we both know that I'm not going to say "y'know luvluv, you're right! I hereby renounce porn and realize that sex is a beautiful act but only between a loving married man and woman. And to show my remorse for contributing for so long to the objectification and abuse of defenseless girls and women I'm going to sell my house and car to get back all the dirty money I made and use it to start a home for Wayward Porn Actresses to help them escape the evil porn industry!!! Thank you for showing me the light..." And you're not going to say, "y'know Lauri, you're right! I realize that my own issues with pornography have tainted my ability to look at the issue objectively, and I now realize that porn itself is not immoral and if I'm concerned about some females being abused or coerced I should just abstain personally or maybe even start a nonprofit organization dedicated to weeding out the abuse and coercion! Also I've come to accept that sex is not some sacred special act, although it can be, it can also be purely recreational and devoid of romantic love or commitment and not have a negative effect on the casual-sex-havers!!! Thank you for showing me the light..." Now before you get your knickers in a twist please don't worry about dissecting my frivolity to demonstrate my ridiculous strawman-building; I'm just kiddin' with ya and it has been an interesting discussion but I don't see at this point if there is any point in continuing. I'm going to keep making pornographic films and enjoy myself until I put myself out to pasture. In fact I'm going to make a phone call to schedule a shoot right now. And I am certain that you will continue to abstain from viewing pornography and be certain in your convictions that it is immoral to do so. And feel guilty when you masturbate. So, ready for that "Is masturbation wrong" thread? I'd be happy to start it!

02-26-2003, 03:33 PM	#338
Michaelson Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Straya Posts: 290	But.. you said that this post was an exercise in futility, and that you'd never make luvluv see the light, and that luvluv would never make you see the light, and that as such you're ready for a whole new thread with a different topic... My guess is that's why you didn't get a response.

02-26-2003, 03:49 PM	#339
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Oh... perhaps you are correct, Michaelson, I guess I was just waiting for a confirmation/agreement or something.... I guess I'll wait a few days then start that other thread then!!!

03-04-2003, 05:48 PM	#340
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I haven't been on in like a week, that's why you haven't gotten a response. This may be a dead horse, though. I think we can all see that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm gonna be out of commision until about Tuesday, so don't look for me before then.

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