Vicar Philip

Gemma,

What say you of my personal experiences with the Catholic church? Anything?

Vicar

Amie

Hi Eudaimonist
I do not want people expressing dislike for other denominations here and yes that would be off topic. I just perceive that most here dislike the catholic church more than any other so I was asking why...
My perception could be wrong, but its what it seems to me.
I probably should have started a seperate thread

Thanks for your response Vorkosigan. I wish I could refute some of those negatives but I just can't.

Amie

Hi Vicar
I know you asked Gemma for feedback but I thought I would respond...

yikes that sounds like someone in my family. Are we related?

My grandfather refused to come to my wedding because I was not getting married in the Catholic church. It is sad what people will do when they become somewhat fanatical. As much as I believe in God I will take my family over the church any day...

I went to a private All girls catholic high school and we were called the "whorehouse on the hill" however I dont think we were any more sexually active than our friends from public school.

yes that is unfortunate

One of the things I dislike is that you have to go before a commitee if you want to get an annulment and this commitee consists of priests and nuns and they decide if its accepted or not. My friend went through the process simply because she did not want to be "tainted" with divorce, her *hearing* seemed to drag but ultimately she got her annulment...

what reasons did the church give you?

hmmm I read that wrong at first. I first read that as *your* sister who went to catechism was a bitch...

What did the Sister do that was bitchy?

to each his own
have a good one Vicar

Amie~

Sabine Grant

Hello again Amie... just to reassure you that there is no bius towards the catholic church, I am here to testify that any time you announce that you are a christian, you are going to be challenged. And I think we both agree that it is quite understandable in a secular forum.

I mean take dear Amos who is a catholic and witch hunts anyone who appears to be from the protestant side.... ouch ouch.

And I can attest too that Ronin does not take any prisonners in his personal endeavor to fight evil and deception. Ah caro Ronin!

I agree with you though that the method of bashing may not be so productive in terms of influencing the mind of a fervent catholic. An even handed dialogue presenting only facts without any demeaning descriptions can probably bring a catholic to reflect on what is presented.

I think most people here have learned to appreciate your kindness and honesty Amie..... whether you be a catholic or anything else.

Love, Veronique.

Infinity Lover

I don't think that question was off topic, Amie did a good job at explaining why, (if you're going to focus on RC-ism, you may as well ask why) and Vorkosigan did his best to answer it.

Infinity Lover

Hi Sabine

With all due respect...
I doubt anyone here ever assumed you're merely posing as a Christian.

It's not having a certain beliefs or being part of a certain church that get challenged. It's positive assertions, of any kind, religious ones not excluded, that one is expected to be prepared to back up in some way.

I would never have to prove it if I claimed to believe in pink fairies, (how am I gonna do that? An officially recognized believers-license?) but if I claimed that pink fairies exists for sure, people are going to ask for some form of proof, or at least be curious about what my faith in the existence of pink fairies is based on.

Vorkosigan

Well, if it is any consolation, I think the Church's problems mostly stem from being an authoritarian institution and are a matter of organizational dynamics rather than religion per se. For example, obviously Christianity nowhere encourages the molesting of children or the protection of perpetrators, so the reasons for such behavior probably lie in the organizational format of the Catholic Church. An organization badly in need of a little democratic accountability.

Of course, I was brought up Catholic and became an atheist at the age of 11, so have been an atheist as long as I can remember. My 'rents forced me to go to Church. Maybe I'm working out something here...

Vorkosigan

Amie

Hi Vorkosigan
I do agree the problems are resulting from authoritarian institution. I want you to know I appreciate your answers and I was rather impressed with your examples you gave as you seem very knowledgable. I can respect your basis for your opinion. In other words I appreciate that you dont dislike the catholic church because someone else does, but you are able to give reasons based on things you have learned for yourself...

I admire that you also find a distinction between the institution and religion per se.

Well if you ever come to California you can come with me on donut day
all the free donuts you can eat...

Bree

On the subject of annullment:

I can't understand how one can simply "annull" a marriage, and try to make it as if it never happened. For example, my soon-to-be-aunt, who married an abusive alcoholic and had a child by him. She now wants to marry my uncle, and is in the process of getting an annullment. I don't understand how one can pretend that her former marriage never happened, especially if she has a kid. Do you just forget about the kid, too?

Vorkosigan

Thanks! Damn, I miss the donuts! Something was lost when our society switched to bagels -- so nice to be in Texas last year, when the unreconstructed southerners still served donuts at social gatherings! The only reason I went to Church..donuts, and the after-mass hobnobbing. We went to the Newman Center on Campus, and everyone was cool -- the 70s, you know, everyone was trying to be cool in a painfully earnest way. I also liked the music very much, and still do. We sang songs that are still among my favorites, like "Morning has Broken," "Today (while the blossoms...)" ....

I've had a lot of experiences with the Church overseas that really opened my eyes. Additionally, my 'rents, who are American Catholics to the core, are awfully critical of the Vatican even though they fiercely defend the Holy Mother Church. I think ultimately you have to maintain some kind of separation between the Vatican and the ideal of the Church in order to remain a Catholic, although that may just be an American thing....

Rambling, just rambling.

Vorkosigan