Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Dave,
I don't understand the question. What do you mean specifically by premature and non-premature death as it refers to this context?


What specific events are you refering to?


What about them?

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Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

If they really were 'incredibly destructive' we wouldn't be here, would we? Also note that we have a thick atmosphere that protects us by incinerating almost all asteroids and meteors that come in contact with earth.

Because He gave the earth an immensely powerful magnetic field that shields us from almost all of the harmful UV rays. If it weren't for this shield...we would be dead in moments.

He didn't. Disease, death, decay are elemental aspects of sin...separation from God. They are not punishment.

Because it's highly likely that if the process of micro-evolution/natural selection (the process of organisms becoming resitant to adverse conditions) did not exist...then neither would you. You would never be able to adapt to different diseases or become immune to them.

To date, the best theory as to the cause of Alzheimer's disease is that it is environmental. There is a strong correlation between higher-than-average exposure to aluminum (and products made from/with it) and Alzheimers. It is highly probable that post-industrial society is causing it.


The predator/prey paradigm did not exist until after the fall. Yet another consequence of sin.

See 3...sin produces decay...not God. In addition, deformaties are more often than not caused by environmental agents.

Would these really be disasters if mankind A-were not a war, B-had a stable economic infrastructure?
I was in a 'disasterous' 7+ earthquake in a major metropolitan area yet nobody was seriously injured. Civilization harbors safety.

Who's to say he did not curb the spread of the disease and had he not thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) more may have suffered.

Uh...no.


It seems more like you are simply angry at God and blaming him for bad things that have happened rather than convinced He does not exist.


Thoughts and comments welcomed,


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atheist_in_foxhole

Yes, our atmosphere protects us from most asteroids/meteors, but what about the ones that didn't burn up in the atmosphere? We've been struck by literally thousands of large meteors and asteroids over the past few million years. Many of these objects exploded with a force MUCH greater than the largest nuclear weapons ever developed during the cold war (greater than 50 megatons). One struck as recently as 1908, flattening a large section of Siberian forest. This same object caused an explosion so bright that it was seen in London. If your alleged god made the atmosphere to protect us from these things, how do you explain this? And why, in your opinion, does your god allow these things to menace our little planet in the first place? Would you allow giant rocks to crash into your children? I don't think you would. What would you think of a parent who did allow that? Would you praise them and worship them?

But why does your alleged god allow ANY harmful rays to get through? Thousands of people die from skin cancer every year, and some are born with diseases that make it painful for them to be exposed to even small amounts of sunshine. Couldn't an all-powerful creator create a sun without harmful rays?

And you didn't respond to my question about the sun eventually expanding and destroying everything in the solar system. We have seen this happen with other stars and scientists are fairly certain that it will happen to ours as well. Do you disagree with this theory?

Your subsequent responses to my questions about diseases and natural disasters made no sense at all. The "fall" is an obvious (and in my view, ridiculous) myth. It's amazing to me to see that anyone in this day and age could believe such nonsense. I do, however, admire how you Xians use it to explain away almost everything bad that happens. It's so very convenient!

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

Datheron

It is really pointless to try to argue against a Christian when he begins touting that even worse things could have happened, but did not.

As long as the events that transpire are not the worse human catatrophes imaginable (and who's to say that God didn't try something that we can't even imagine?), the theist can always fall back on "at least he didn't do this..." After all, what's the death of a few million when he could have wiped out the entire planet, right?

When one's worldview begins with the depressing statement that we shouldn't even be here in the first place, and that we're basically God's &lt;female dogs&gt; whose lives are on loan temporarily from his divine greatness and all, every disaster possible pales in comparison.

free12thinker

How can you answer all of these questions with, "they happened as a result of sin". Whose sin? The sins of people past? If so, how fair is it that we pay for the sins of others?

Is there any difference in God making us pay for the past sins of others, and your boss at work making your job lousy because your predecessors were lousy employees?

Sheeesh. But that's okay. God is the answer to questions that theists can't answer. We can deal with that. I have to pull your card with at least one of your responses to Foxholes questions.

Foxholes Q-
9. Why did your "loving" god allow the Influenza
epidemic that occured shortly after WW1? Surely
he/she/it knew that we were already suffering
enough.
Your Answer-
Who's to say he did not curb the spread of the disease and had he not thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) more may have suffered.

So what you're saying is, God prevented harm to an even larger number of people, right? But why was anyone harmed, if God could've done something? And please don't say because of sin. Though I know you will.

There are no other explanations from theists. And just because Atheist in a Foxhole is providing you with genuine questions surrounding your God, doesn't mean it's anger replacing actual doubt of Gods existence. It simply means he (and every other reasonable person in this world) is curious to hear your observations regarding those truths we face. We know the answers are anything but spiritual. We just wan't so see you provide an answer that isn't spiritual.

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>

tronvillain

Answerer:
Well, not all Christians and Muslims have that belief, and I am not sure that it exists at all in Jewish systems.

SOMMS:
If you are going to refer to "human suffering caused by natural processes" as "human suffering" how do you refer to "human suffering caused by humans"?

Anyway, I think the obvious solution to the problem of evil (whether natural or moral) is that if God exists he is either a bastard or a moron.

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Datheron,
Not as pointless as the atheists usual philosphical position of blaming every 'bad' thing on God.

Note that you do not credit God for things like
-The recent 7+ earthquake in Seattle that could have killed tens of thousands yet no one was seriously hurt.
-The catastrophic 1908 Siberian explosion which could have killed millions had it occured in a metropolitan area yet few or none were even hurt.
-The thousands of hurricanes, earthquakes and volcanoes that occur that don't harm anyone.

If you blame God for the 'bad' you must also credit him for the 'good'. Anything else is intellectual dishonesty and/or bias.


Thoughts and comments welcomed,


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Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

freethinker,
No. I am saying that the argument/question 'Why did God allow an event where X number of people suffered?' has no meaning. It is completely arbitrary. Note the only unique thing about this question is the specific value of X. The question is really 'Why is X = 10000?' or 'Why is X = 150?' or 'Why is X = 5?'

The real issue of human suffering is not 'Why does X = some positive value?' It is 'Why is X non zero???' This is the only meaningful question concerning human suffering. This question is not arbitrary...it is not based on some arbitrary positive value of X.

You say as much here:


You've hit the nail on the head exactly:

Why is there any human suffering at all?

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas ]</p>

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Tron,
This is what I simply call 'evil' (suffering by intent).


You are certainly free to think that. While I can understand your position on 'natural evil' I find it hard to understand why you would blame God for 'moral evil'...evil that occurs from the intentions of others.


Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

tronvillain

SOMMS:
What confused labels you use: "human suffering caused by natural processes" is "human suffering" but "human suffering caused by humans" is "evil." Since "human suffering" should encompass suffering that results from either natural processes or other humans, using the label "natural evil" makes much more sense.

That would be because the free will defense doesn't work, and it's the only real defense of moral evil I've ever seen.