Ms. Siv

To what extent are fundamental rights sacred ?
Till it interfere's with the rights of the others is the standard (and correct!) answer. However, how do you determine where to draw the line at a level of interference . In a sense we're all interfering with each other's rights. By the very act of breathing I am reducing oxygen supply for you.

When a woman's reproductive rights begin interfering with the rights of others (overcrowding, more than optimum competition for resources etc), can it be curbed ?

Take China's one-child policy for instance . Was it justified ? Evidence shows that it did succeed in reducing the population growth rate considerably.

- Sivakami.

alek0

Sivakami,
it would have been much better if they've started earlier and limited the number to two. As it is, there'll be big problems later with not enough working force to support aging population and not balanced number of males vs. females.

One thing I definitely don't understand are those who aborted female fetuses or killed newborn girls. If everybody had only sons, what would they do? Stupid, stupid, stupid...

I am in favour of personal freedoms, and China is a country with horrendous human rights records. However, I don't think they had much choice on that one. Either limit population growth or starve. Living conditions in Chinese cities are bad enough as it is. Though food in mainland is unbeleivably cheap when I compare it to Hong Kong.

tronvillain

Well, since I don't really believe in "fundamental rights" I'd have to say that they aren't sacred to any extent.

Oh, and you breathing has absolutely no impact on my oxygen supply. This should be obvious - you are breathing, yet I have all the oxygen I can breathe.

Sakpo

I was talking to a friend about this last year, a guy from Hong Kong. It should be noted that he looks down on non Hong Kong Chinese and is always really condescending sounding when he talks about them. His version used the wordz "stupid" and "ignorant" a lot. I think that may well have been justified actually(the use of the word "ignorant" at least)...Anyway....

They (parents) aren't thinking in the bigger picture, they're looking at their individual situations. Chinese culture is really fixated on children growing up to look after their parents. The belief is that sons naturally will look after their parents in their old age better than daughters. Since they can only have one child, and are poor and know they'll need the help, they want to ensure their one child is a reliable son.

It may be the case than sons are indeed better able to look after their parents, if only because China is still a male dominated society, and the men may prefer to look after their own parents above their in-laws.

echidna

Consequently China is headed for serious demographic and social problems. Several generations of single child males. That’s not an adhom against single children, or males, but to socially alter a nation’s demographic so drastically, reeks of authoritarian totalitarianism.

Contrast India. Is India suffering so badly without such a policy ? (genuine question)

Sakpo, there is a definite pecking order amongst the Chinese. Singaporean over Malaysian over Indonesian. Hong Kong, Mainland and Taiwanese will always joust, and as far as the Japanese are concerned they’re all inferior (to cast a very wide generalisation).

alek0

Sakpo,
Hong Kong chinese look down on everyone who is not Hong Kong chinese At least for gweilo they are condescending only behind our backs

Anyway, I would have used word stupid for such practice whoever does it. BTW, I think that infanticide and selective abortions happen in India too (someone correct me if I am wrong), though reason is a bit different, i.e. girls are expected to bring dowry.

Concerning claim about male dominated society, which country isn't? I really, really hate it when I attend a banquet or cocktail at the opening ceremony for a conference and when people ask me at which session is my husband giving a talk. Grrrrr. I don't have a husband, I don't want a husband, and *I* am having a paper at that conference.

Echidna,
I would suggest a visit to Calcutta to see how much is India not suffering. Shudder...
Which is such a pity since it is absolutely beautiful country, and has marvellous food. There are very few countries where us poor vegeterians have nice choice in restaurants. In Hong Kong, best meal I can have when eating out is food for buddhist monks in the temples

Triple Six

Desperate problems require desperate solutions. Personally I'm far happier with China's one child policy than with "keep 'em coming" approach of some religions where large families are encouraged. Catholic, SDA and Islam is to name but three cults who don't seem to have any problems with families producing extra children they lack the economic means to support. The children suffer, and worse responsible citizens with few or no children are left to pay the price.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Proud atheist ]</p>

Boro Nut

This is an old chestnut I am surprised to see repeated here. China has many policies on children, not just one. They are all bad though.

Boro Nut

echidna

But neither has China’s OCP cured their woes. Poverty & hunger are still rife, arguably moreso than India. While their obvious solution 50 years ago was to open their market economies to improve standards of living thereby reducing population increase, it’s taken the government far too long to wake up.

It’s easy for us to speculate from the comfort and freedom of the west, but for the well-to-do mainland Chinese I know, it’s been a terrible price to pay, and one which we cannot even begin to imagine.

Those who complain about the religious infringements which we are subjected to should briefly consider life under a far stronger totalitarianism, and reconsider what real atrocities and injustices have been necessary to enforce this policy.

In many ways it’s not too many people, just a shortage of food from primitive farming techniques and corrupt markets.

echidna

Forget the abortion debate for a moment. What does it take for so many mothers to kill their children, especially daughters, risking primitive abortion clinics ? Few parents in developed countries undertake this decision lightly, and yet China’s enforcement of the OCP has brought this into common practice.