DarkBronzePlant

Where's the ridicule in "There are no corners on a compass."?

Ridicule would have been something like this:

Translation: "That quote from the bible has been proven false; therefore, it was originally intended figuratively, not literally."

QuadWhore

The republic of rome lasted for over 500 years. Despite their pagan religion they were the most free and by far the most successfull civilization on the planet. The roman empire that replaced it lasted another 500 years and managed to control most of the known world. shortly after christianity was adopted as their official religion the empire fell into ruin and was overrun by barbarians.

FarSeeker

I think the Chinese might like to argue with that, and the Europeans as well. You may want to claim that European civilization is based on Rome's, but then you would have to also claim that Rome's was based on Etruscan and Greek civilization and you would have to keep going until you reach, who, the Summerians?

All of what QuadWhore said is irrelevant. Christianity as the cause for the fall of Rome is an idea held only by the historian's equivalent of flat earthers.

The fact that Christians have been a majority in the United States of America, the majority of Presidents, and just HAPPENS to have outlawed slavery (which your "glorious" example did not), amoung other things, like destroying perhaps the 3 most evil nations of history: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and the USSR.

But even your "glorious" example doesn't hold up! It could even be called specious. While the Western Roman Empire fell, the Eastern, Constantinople (sp?) did not fall until internal corruption and outside invasion destroyed it. But then again maybe you would like living under the rule of Caligula, Nero (need I doubt that?) or Caracalla (who "arranged" a massacre in Alexandria, Egypt).

phlebas

Oh, Christianity did all that? Man, I have been lied to by countless history teachers.

Vorkosigan

Turton: Some writers see close links between Christianity and Communism, in their authoritarianism, their teleological view of history, and so forth.
Michael

FS: History is strange in that way. 225 years and some 40+ Theist Presidents (mostly Christians) after the founding of our nation, BY theists of all denominations, we still are, arguably, the most free country on the planet. Several years after Atheists took over Russia, Mass murder was common, secret police were the rule and the Atheist Leaders were kissing Hitler’s ass until he started kicking theirs back to Moscow.

You seem to have missed the point of my post. I was alluding to writers who have seen a close resemblance between the structure of Communism and the structure of Christianity, not in deals between Communism and Christianity. For example, both Communism and Christianity look forward to a future where the present civilization will disappear and people will enter a paradise. Both see history as moving from somewhere to somewhere, and so on.

BTW, how many millions died in the Atlantic slave trade conducted by and for mostly Protestant Christians? Christian leaders were kissing Hitlers' ass too; the future Pope disassembled the Catholic opposition, then later the Vatican ran Nazi war criminals out to the waiting arms of the OSS, and laundered money from the Croatian mass murderers. Oh, and is canonizing their Catholic patron, Stepanic. Also, a large number of clerics were involved in the Balkan genocides, and at least one death camp was run by a cleric. I could go on, but frankly the crimes of Christians are well known on this forum.

As authority systems, it is not surprising that Christianity and Communism have had their share of killing. Communists killed because they were Communists; they also killed atheists who were not Communists, and Communists who had different beliefs than those of the ruling orthodoxy (sounds a lot like Christianity. What happened to the Cathars again....?).

A little study of history might help here.

Michael

Emperor of the Universe

Not that this whole dumb 'guilt by association' argument is even intellectually valid, but...

Actually, the less Christinsanity we have had, the more free we have become. Perhaps you would like to live about 80 or so years ago - you know, when people worked 16 hours a day, 6 days a week for a nickel an hour; when poverty was of third-world caliber; when the Christian KKK ruled the South with an iron fist; when blacks and women were prevented from voting; when child abuse was pretty much legal; and when all that Prohibition nonsense was in place? If you did, you would be living in a world filled with theists and Christians, some of whom were the most vocal supporters of all that shit.
And did nothing against most of the non-atheist public merely for not being atheists.
Huh? The Czar ordering his troops to blast away at so many innocent protesters was not "mass murder"?
Secret Police are in every strong nation, especially one with lots of problems. You are merely speaking of Communist secret Police. The Christian church-supported Czars had their own secret police.
Well, Hitler and his largely theistic army and supporters.
As is the idea that Communism would not and could not exist if atheism didn't.
The fact that the majority of the history of America was full of ill treatment of women, minorities, low-income people, etc., and much of this was reversed in the 60's by the actions of so many an atheist left-winger.
It was Christian nations (Western European powers) that started the slave trade, and other Christian nations (America and Brazil, for example) which bought the slaves. A nation who's dominant political party was quite extensively supporting by Christians.
A die-hard theist nation (The Emperor was "God").
Who probably wouldn't have been so pissed off at Christians in the first place had the Church been preaching Jesus' message of helping the poor, as opposed to being puppets of the Czar and the ruling class.

Echo

Well those weren't "real" Christians, remember? <snicker>

Daggah

Communist killing of Christians had more to do with communist russian leaders not wanting people obeying any other authority but the government. It's hardly fair to blame atheism in general, which is nothing more than a statement about the existence of the supernatural, for power-hungry leaders' actions.

Since atheism is not a dogma, creed, or religion, you cannot blame anything on it. Atheists have very little in common other than their lack of belief.

Datheron

FarSeeker,

I just wanted to comment on this completely absurd statement. First of all, the "evil" that you claim to exist in these nations are actually present in the leaders - Nazi Germany was held primarily by the Nazi party and Hitler (who has a Calvinistic sense of superiority more than anything else), Japan had the God-chosen emperor, and USSR had the totalitarian Stalin whose power laid in the KGB. These countries certainly weren't "evil" in any sense of the word - they were oppressed by their leaders, not by their religion (or lack thereof).

On the other hand, what has Christianity provided for us? Well, it was the primarily reason (the strength of hte belief) that had caused the Crusades. Its intolerance also forced those of different sects to move to the New World. Once here, religious belief caused such events as the Salem Witch trials and religion was used as an oppressive tool in slavery. As a matter of fact, the strong Christian south (conservative) were the ones that kept slavery till its dying end. Some of the most brilliant framers were deist, and most of the progressive moments in America either raise in the North/West (where you have less religious or "looser" Christians) or arise from oppression in the deeply religious south. That is what Christianity has given us.

sailor74

Oliver

Is correct, the four corners are, the four points of the compass.