Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Andrew · 01-09-2003, 10:59 AM

That John guy, and Susan, well...

Is it really worthwhile? Idiots like that are going to be idiots no matter what you say.

Andrew · 01-09-2003, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
Are you suggesting that the scientists know something, but are keeping it from us until we are older? Or is that just some sort of metaphor?

If you want to know whether there is more to the development of an organism than "just" DNA, talk to PZ. He just can't stop talking about it.

He doesn't like smilies either. :boohoo:

Okay, I'll illustrate it through gravity.

When you are young, you learn that gravity is a force which pulls things together - planets' suns, asteroids, comets, and so forth, as well as the littler things in the universe.

However, when you go more into detail, you realise that this is not consistent with what scientists are actually theorising about the universe. There is no such force as gravity - what we see as its effects are really due to the curvature of space-time. Or something of that nature - someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

My point is this - a lot of what we learn as children is, well, not quite lies, but a 'version' of the truth. Then, when you descend further, you find out what really happens. Perhaps 'DNA' is the same kind of thing.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Just that there might be more to things than just the magical DNA.

Mageth · 01-09-2003, 11:18 AM

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Just that there might be more to things than just the magical DNA.

As was pointed out above, there is definitely "more to things" than just "magical" DNA. I don't think many would deny that or try to hide that fact.

Bubba · 01-09-2003, 07:03 PM

Glad to see you back on CF Rufus!

Chris

Jobar · 01-09-2003, 07:22 PM

Andrew, there are many things which our science can't explain well. For instance, we don't have a complete description of the interaction of gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong nuclear force. (Such a description would be called a 'unified field theory'. But scientists who think about these things have not found one, though there are researchers working on it every day.)

There are things which science does explain, and with incredible precision. We can send a space probe to Saturn, and make it fly inside that planet's rings; that is accuracy comparable to threading a needle at a distance of many miles! We do this using Isaac Newton's physics; although Newton's equations are not utterly precise- you need to apply Einstein's relativity when speeds approach that of light, 186,000 miles per second- they are still very, very accurate for things like space flight.

So, in that sense, some sciences are approximations. Like your gravity example, we teach the simpler, less precise theories and equations first. They may be simpler, but they are still true, except in very unusual circumstances. It's like when you learn to read, you start off with 'see Spot run' and don't jump right into Shakespeare.

For some sciences, like biology and chemistry, we understand the basics extremely well. But there are so many ways that atoms can be combined, that we still can be surprised by some of the things they do. DNA is fairly basic chemistry nowadays, and so we can say that our understanding of it is very precise. It is unlikely, to the point of impossibility, that our understanding of DNA is *wrong*. It's just that when you start adding the effects of longer and longer chains of DNA, the number of possible things that can result becomes mind-bogglingly huge- viruses, bacteria, plants, animals, individual people. Our understanding of DNA is correct even if it is not complete.

Bubba · 01-09-2003, 07:35 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by RufusAtticus [

Thanx I try hard. Explaining things to fundies who are antagonistic to them is a great exercise in education. I feel that my time addressing creationist misconceptions will pay off in the end when I find my self teaching freshman biology in the bible belt.

~~RvFvS~~ [/B]

Naaah. You just like picking fights you know you can't fail to win.

WinAce · 01-09-2003, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TollHouse
JohnR7 is a nutjob. He once made a claim that he and his church prayed so hard that they were able to resurrect a friend of theirs - who then got all pissed off because they were interrupting the fun he was having in heaven.

As the well-deserved leading world authority on stupid fundy quotes,

Quote:

We have a man in our church who was driving one of the trucks out on a crucade and the brakes went out of the truck on a hill. He was killed. They prayed over him and he was risen from the dead. The problem was, he was very angry about that. He really would have rather stayed in heaven. In fact it took him about three months to get over it, before he would even start to talk to them again, because he was so mad at them for raising him from the dead.
- JohnR7

:banghead:

Although this latest thread has made me say "WTF" more than a couple of times.

Andrew · 01-10-2003, 12:36 AM

Jobar:

As to the accuracy and knowledge of the sciences, yes, I agree. There are many things which science can currently tell us, and many other things it cannot.

My point, really, is that perhaps DNA as we see it is wrong, as in it is not the whole truth - and, maybe, in that sense the people at CF are correct.

Duck! · 01-10-2003, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andrew
Jobar:

As to the accuracy and knowledge of the sciences, yes, I agree. There are many things which science can currently tell us, and many other things it cannot.

My point, really, is that perhaps DNA as we see it is wrong, as in it is not the whole truth - and, maybe, in that sense the people at CF are correct.

The point of this thread was that some people at CF have denied the very existence of DNA and the results of genetic research. They've gone so far as to call geneticists like Rufus downright scam artists. They haven't simply claimed that there's more to life than DNA. Nobody holds that strawman position.

Duck!

Jayjay · 01-10-2003, 04:48 AM

*Sigh*

I'm so fed up with seeing perfectly functional minds being tangled up with religious conspiracy theorist nonsense. I can't even read the whole thread, it's just too sad and predictable... freethinkers on one side trying to ask what the fundies exactly mean by their ranting, and fundies on one side ignoring them and trying hurling their circular arguments around.

Yeah sure, DNA is a scam made up by atheists who want to put god-fearing christians to jail. All the rapists convicted based on DNA tests are in fact innocent victims, and we should free them on the grounds that philosophical naturalism that underlies the false science of DNA is eating away the moral foundations of our society.

:boohoo:

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01-09-2003, 10:59 AM	#21
Andrew Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Posts: 11	That John guy, and Susan, well... Is it really worthwhile? Idiots like that are going to be idiots no matter what you say.

01-09-2003, 11:18 AM	#23
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Just that there might be more to things than just the magical DNA. As was pointed out above, there is definitely "more to things" than just "magical" DNA. I don't think many would deny that or try to hide that fact.

01-09-2003, 07:03 PM	#24
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Glad to see you back on CF Rufus! Chris

01-09-2003, 07:22 PM	#25
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Andrew, there are many things which our science can't explain well. For instance, we don't have a complete description of the interaction of gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong nuclear force. (Such a description would be called a 'unified field theory'. But scientists who think about these things have not found one, though there are researchers working on it every day.) There are things which science does explain, and with incredible precision. We can send a space probe to Saturn, and make it fly inside that planet's rings; that is accuracy comparable to threading a needle at a distance of many miles! We do this using Isaac Newton's physics; although Newton's equations are not utterly precise- you need to apply Einstein's relativity when speeds approach that of light, 186,000 miles per second- they are still very, very accurate for things like space flight. So, in that sense, some sciences are approximations. Like your gravity example, we teach the simpler, less precise theories and equations first. They may be simpler, but they are still true, except in very unusual circumstances. It's like when you learn to read, you start off with 'see Spot run' and don't jump right into Shakespeare. For some sciences, like biology and chemistry, we understand the basics extremely well. But there are so many ways that atoms can be combined, that we still can be surprised by some of the things they do. DNA is fairly basic chemistry nowadays, and so we can say that our understanding of it is very precise. It is unlikely, to the point of impossibility, that our understanding of DNA is wrong. It's just that when you start adding the effects of longer and longer chains of DNA, the number of possible things that can result becomes mind-bogglingly huge- viruses, bacteria, plants, animals, individual people. Our understanding of DNA is correct even if it is not complete.

01-10-2003, 12:36 AM	#28
Andrew Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Posts: 11	Jobar: As to the accuracy and knowledge of the sciences, yes, I agree. There are many things which science can currently tell us, and many other things it cannot. My point, really, is that perhaps DNA as we see it is wrong, as in it is not the whole truth - and, maybe, in that sense the people at CF are correct.

01-10-2003, 04:48 AM	#30
Jayjay Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 6,261	Sigh I'm so fed up with seeing perfectly functional minds being tangled up with religious conspiracy theorist nonsense. I can't even read the whole thread, it's just too sad and predictable... freethinkers on one side trying to ask what the fundies exactly mean by their ranting, and fundies on one side ignoring them and trying hurling their circular arguments around. Yeah sure, DNA is a scam made up by atheists who want to put god-fearing christians to jail. All the rapists convicted based on DNA tests are in fact innocent victims, and we should free them on the grounds that philosophical naturalism that underlies the false science of DNA is eating away the moral foundations of our society. :boohoo:

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