xeren

Now accepting private messages. sorry about that RJS. I would still love to hear from you about that.

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

Rusting Car Bumper

Agreed.

DC

xeren

Yeah, i don't see why how many people believe in santa skews the analogy, it's still a being that a number of people don't believe in for lack of good evidence.

So someone pick something that Christians don't believe in (Allah, Vishnu, whatever, it really doesn't matter) and let's get on with it!

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

RJS

What I was trying to get at is that regardless of what a Christian might tell you (about you going to hell), its up to God. He is just. Only you and He know what is in your heart about why you don't believe. And I guess that could range from "After a thorough search of the evidence, I can't believe even though I would like to and have tried" to "I really don't want to have a God, I much prefer myself in the center of my existence, and so I will find excuses for not believing." So justice will be served - whether that is hell or otherwise.

The problem with this thread (and the other one), is that for a believer, it is very hard (impossible?) to envision someone not believing who had approached the issue openly with a desire to believe. So we (or maybe just I) have to assume that deep down there is actually a desire to "not believe." Similar to the wife who suspects and deep down knows that her husband is messing around, but much prefers believing (pretending?) that it isn't true. Forgive the poor analogy.

I think it would be productive (for me) to get the testimony of former athiests (now believers) as to their current view of their former position, and whether in their opinion it was a result of a deep desire to avoid a powerful God. I know that such info wont be found here, and probably wouldnt be helpful to you. I'm just rambling.

Later.

Mageth

The problem with this thread (and the other one), is that for a believer, it is very hard (impossible?) to envision someone not believing who had approached the issue openly with a desire to believe. So we (or maybe just I) have to assume that deep down there is actually a desire to "not believe."

I believe in the other thread I covered this (from my personal experience, anyway). I was a "believer" for the first 45 years of my life. For the last 2+ years I've been a non-believer. I didn't come to that position out of a desire to "not believe." I wanted to believe. Instead, careful examination of the evidence (for and against belief) led me to the position of non-belief.

Indeed, my life would be much easier if I could believe. Further, I think it would be nice to know I could live a blissful eternity in paradise.

But wishing will not make it so. Intellectually, belief is now beyond me. You might say I know too much to believe.

Mageth

What I was trying to get at is that regardless of what a Christian might tell you (about you going to hell), its up to God. He is just.

I can respect this. Interestingly, this is a position I worked out for myself as a believer. And even now, as a non-believer, I feel that, if by chance there is a god, I have nothing to fear, as a just god would not do what many claim he will do in terms of "justice."

So take heart, RJS; you may be on the road to rationality, as I was a few years back!

xeren

Let's not worry about which case i, or any specific person is. Let's worry about a hypothetical person who actually went through a thorough search of the evidence, but couldn't believe even though he would like to and has tried.

What about this person?


I think we just got to the root of another problem intertwined with what we have been talking about: That word "desire". When i look at the fact claim "God exists", i desire to know the truth of the matter, whether it be that God exists or doesn't exist. From what you said, it sounds like when you approached this fact claim, you approached it with a desire to believe. Doesn't that give you a bit of a bias when evaluating this claim? (And the necessity to re-evaluate it?)


[I edit everything]

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

Mageth

I think that's a very good point, xeren. For me, the desire to know the truth outweighs my desire to believe, one way or the other.

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

RJS

I knew that was coming when I typed it But I left it in anyway. I don't recall originally analyzing the claim, as I have been a theist as long as I can remember, although there were significant periods where God was ignored and I was my own god. Ultimate surrender to the Lord was not, however, something I proactively searched for and "wanted". Certainly at this stage I would have a "believer's bias" just as many atheists here have there own biases, regardless of how "freethinking" they may be. I tried to get at some of this in the other thread (if I recall correctly), with the envelope question.

It sure would be nice to have the statistic on the bias. What % of atheists actually don't want to believe, regardless of the facts. And what % of theists want to believe, regardless of the facts. We will never know, I guess, it is a personal thing. Which is why a just God will serve justice.

Mageth

I don't think you'd find many atheists who would claim that they would not believe in god if presented with facts as to his existence.