Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Quetzal · 02-15-2002, 01:14 AM

The whole "explosion" thing is what massively irritates me. This hyperbole is what the cretinists keep focusing on. You could be just as legitimate talking about a Triassic Explosion (50 my), where the protoreptilian diapsids finally beat out the protomammalian synapsids in the world domination game following the Permian extinctions (up to then, it was pretty much neck-and-neck). Or the Paleocene Explosion (10 my) where the itty-bitty second-rate mammals finally came into their own following the Cretaceous extinctions (reversing the trend that had been occurring for the last 170 my).

Maybe there were three Creations!

The only significant difference is that the Cambrian marks the first rapid radiation from which we have decent fossils. Cretinists seem to think this means something special. Just mention "Vendian fossils".

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Morpho ]

Oolon Colluphid · 02-15-2002, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morpho:
 Just mention "Vendian fossils".

...and they'll say "huh?"

Oolon

MOJO-JOJO · 02-15-2002, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morpho:
 You could be just as legitimate talking about a Triassic Explosion (50 my), where the protoreptilian diapsids finally beat out the protomammalian synapsids in the world domination game following the Permian extinctions (up to then, it was pretty much neck-and-neck).

Is that available in Nintendo 64 format or just Play Station 2??

hammegk · 02-15-2002, 05:30 PM

Creationists' might cite
<a href="http://www.iconsofevolution.com/embedJonsArticles.php3?id=1106" target="_blank">http://www.iconsofevolution.com/embedJonsArticles.php3?id=1106</a>

Quote:

Jonathan Wells has received two Ph.D.s, one in Molecular and Cell Biology from the University of California at Berkeley, and one in Religious Studies from Yale University.

J.Wells asks re: DARWIN'S TREE OF LIFE. Why don't textbooks discuss the "Cambrian explosion," in which all major animal groups appear together in the fossil record fully formed instead of branching from a common ancestor--thus contradicting the evolutionary tree of life?

National Center for Science Education's Answer: Wells is wrong: fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals all are post-Cambrian--aren't these "major groups"? We would recognize very few of the Cambrian organisms as "modern"; they are in fact at the roots of the tree of life, showing the earliest appearances of some key features of groups of animals--but not all features and not all groups. Researchers are linking these Cambrian groups using not only fossils but also data from developmental biology.

Wells Response in Outline:
(a) The NCSE is wrong: Fish DID make their first appearance in the Cambrian explosion.
(b) The "major groups" to which my question refers are the animal phyla. Fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals are sub-groups (classes) of a single phylum. The NCSE is using semantics to give the illusion that the Cambrian explosion never happened.
(c) It is through assumption and extrapolation, not "fossils" and "data from developmental biology," that Darwinists are supposedly "linking" the Cambrian groups.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: hammegk ]

Quetzal · 02-15-2002, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MOJO-JOJO:


Is that available in Nintendo 64 format or just Play Station 2??

Sorry, only PC/Windows.

MOJO-JOJO · 02-21-2002, 10:37 AM

AH, and lest we forget to include the anectodal evidence for the christian interpretation of the Cambrian Explosion (just for belly laughs

)

BreakPoint with Charles Colson
Commentary #010103 - 01/03/2001
The Cambrian Explosion: Unraveling a Mystery

It's probably the first thing we notice about animals as we're growing up. Snails don't look like starfish. And starfish don't look like beetles. It's pretty obvious, really.

Biologists have a name for the basic architectural differences between animals: they're called "body plans." The origin of body plans was a mystery to Charles Darwin, and it's still an enigma for evolutionists today. But newer ideas, like intelligent design, offer exciting new approaches to this old problem.

A recent article in the Boston Globe reported on a
meeting in China where the origin of body plans was discussed at length. The paleontologists at the event reported that fossil representatives of nearly all body plans -- or phyla -- appear suddenly, without obvious predecessors in the geological record.

This is the so-called "Cambrian Explosion" of animal life --biology's "Big Bang." Paleontologists define the Cambrian Explosion as the geologically sudden appearance of the major groups of animals, about 530 million years ago. While fossils earlier than the Cambrian Explosion have been found, none is clearly an ancestor of the body plans that appear in the Cambrian era.

Darwin knew about the Cambrian Explosion, even if he didn't call it that. In his book, Origin of Species, Darwin said he could "give no satisfactory answer" as to why so many different groups appear without ancestors in the geological record. Cambrian fossils are complex creatures, with eyes, limbs, digestive and circulatory systems, and other complicated features that evolution would have to build in a step-by-step manner. But the steps are missing. A Chinese biologist at the meeting said that no theory of evolution "can explain these kinds of phenomena." And the Chinese Communist newspaper, Guang Ming Daily, observed, "evolution is facing an extremely harsh challenge."

Well, if evolution can't do it, what sort of system would be capable of building incredibly complex systems? (hmmmmm....the godidit system??)

Certainly not natural selection. As a process, natural selection preserves only those variations of immediate value to a species. The many stages leading to creatures like trilobites have no selective value and are invisible to natural selection.

The process of development by which snails and
starfish -- and you and I, too, for that matter --
were created during reproduction passes through many stages that could not survive on their own. These stages are essential to construct our complex features. Sensory organs and limbs are made up of millions of specialized cells, and natural selection can only act after they've been formed.

And for evolution to build complex animals with millions of specialized cells it would need a
complete set of directions, but that's something natural selection cannot do. As a blind process, it can't look into the future and see where to go.

Only our Intelligent Designer knows where he's going. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> (of course!!) And that's why the experts in China and elsewhere have been stumped. Well, we can pray that one day Darwin's legions will see the truth and honor the Creator who designed it all. And in the meantime, you can use this information to set your neighbors and your kids' biology teachers straight.

"Er..son..er..umm..take this email directly to your Biology teacher, and SET HER STRAIGHT!!"

And people actually ask why our youth are so freekin' stupid today <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

pseudobug · 02-21-2002, 11:30 AM

Quote:

And people actually ask why our youth are so freekin' stupid today

Mojo--Be nice mojo. Kids can't help it because they have stupid parents that listen to the advice of an ignoramus like Colson.

MOJO-JOJO · 02-21-2002, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pseudobug:
Mojo--Be nice mojo. Kids can't help it because they have stupid parents that listen to the advice of an ignoramus like Colson.

This is true, not ALL of our youth are like this. Let me qualify my statement.... "theistic" kids that buy in to their theistic parents' simplistic, brain-washed notions about origins are, well, silly little trolls without much sense.

How's that?

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]

Kosh · 02-21-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seth K:


Yes, there are some scientists who think the Cambrian Explosion was an explosion of hard, shelly parts that preserve much better that soft parts. According to this hypothesis, it was precipitated by rising levels of carbonates in the oceans, which provided ready material as armor plating for defence. This caused an evolutionary arms-race with shells and exo-skeletons arising independently in several lineages.

And precipitated by this event:
<a href="http://www.sciam.com/2000/0100issue/0100hoffman.html" target="_blank">http://www.sciam.com/2000/0100issue/0100hoffman.html</a>

Peez · 02-21-2002, 01:20 PM

Quote:

MOJO-JOJO:
This is true, not ALL of our youth are like this. Let me qualify my statement.... "theistic" kids that buy in to their theistic parents' simplistic, brain-washed notions about origins are, well, silly little trolls without much sense.

How's that?

Would <a href="http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/02/21/teen_transfuse020221" target="_blank">this</a> be an example of what you mean?

Peez

02-15-2002, 01:14 AM	#11
Quetzal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ecuador Posts: 738	The whole "explosion" thing is what massively irritates me. This hyperbole is what the cretinists keep focusing on. You could be just as legitimate talking about a Triassic Explosion (50 my), where the protoreptilian diapsids finally beat out the protomammalian synapsids in the world domination game following the Permian extinctions (up to then, it was pretty much neck-and-neck). Or the Paleocene Explosion (10 my) where the itty-bitty second-rate mammals finally came into their own following the Cretaceous extinctions (reversing the trend that had been occurring for the last 170 my). Maybe there were three Creations! The only significant difference is that the Cambrian marks the first rapid radiation from which we have decent fossils. Cretinists seem to think this means something special. Just mention "Vendian fossils". [ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Morpho ]</p>

02-21-2002, 10:37 AM	#16
MOJO-JOJO Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Nashville, USA Posts: 949	AH, and lest we forget to include the anectodal evidence for the christian interpretation of the Cambrian Explosion (just for belly laughs ) BreakPoint with Charles Colson Commentary #010103 - 01/03/2001 The Cambrian Explosion: Unraveling a Mystery It's probably the first thing we notice about animals as we're growing up. Snails don't look like starfish. And starfish don't look like beetles. It's pretty obvious, really. Biologists have a name for the basic architectural differences between animals: they're called "body plans." The origin of body plans was a mystery to Charles Darwin, and it's still an enigma for evolutionists today. But newer ideas, like intelligent design, offer exciting new approaches to this old problem. A recent article in the Boston Globe reported on a meeting in China where the origin of body plans was discussed at length. The paleontologists at the event reported that fossil representatives of nearly all body plans -- or phyla -- appear suddenly, without obvious predecessors in the geological record. This is the so-called "Cambrian Explosion" of animal life --biology's "Big Bang." Paleontologists define the Cambrian Explosion as the geologically sudden appearance of the major groups of animals, about 530 million years ago. While fossils earlier than the Cambrian Explosion have been found, none is clearly an ancestor of the body plans that appear in the Cambrian era. Darwin knew about the Cambrian Explosion, even if he didn't call it that. In his book, Origin of Species, Darwin said he could "give no satisfactory answer" as to why so many different groups appear without ancestors in the geological record. Cambrian fossils are complex creatures, with eyes, limbs, digestive and circulatory systems, and other complicated features that evolution would have to build in a step-by-step manner. But the steps are missing. A Chinese biologist at the meeting said that no theory of evolution "can explain these kinds of phenomena." And the Chinese Communist newspaper, Guang Ming Daily, observed, "evolution is facing an extremely harsh challenge." Well, if evolution can't do it, what sort of system would be capable of building incredibly complex systems? (hmmmmm....the godidit system??) Certainly not natural selection. As a process, natural selection preserves only those variations of immediate value to a species. The many stages leading to creatures like trilobites have no selective value and are invisible to natural selection. The process of development by which snails and starfish -- and you and I, too, for that matter -- were created during reproduction passes through many stages that could not survive on their own. These stages are essential to construct our complex features. Sensory organs and limbs are made up of millions of specialized cells, and natural selection can only act after they've been formed. And for evolution to build complex animals with millions of specialized cells it would need a complete set of directions, but that's something natural selection cannot do. As a blind process, it can't look into the future and see where to go. Only our Intelligent Designer knows where he's going. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> (of course!!) And that's why the experts in China and elsewhere have been stumped. <strong>Well, we can pray that one day Darwin's legions will see the truth and honor the Creator who designed it all. And in the meantime, you can use this information to set your neighbors and your kids' biology teachers straight. </strong> "Er..son..er..umm..take this email directly to your Biology teacher, and SET HER STRAIGHT!!" And people actually ask why our youth are so freekin' stupid today <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

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