Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dargo · 10-18-2002, 06:25 AM

I read the entire old testament at least twice and the new testament many times when I was a Christian. I would notice errors, absurdities, and contradictions, but my mind just glossed over them. I assumed they were either trivial or that somehow the mistake was in my comprehension rather than the "good" book itself. I even read Asimov's commentary on the Bible, and although it bothered me I was too blinded by faith to really grasp what he was saying. I just blindly assumed that the preachers were telling me the truth. To make matters worse, I knew that the majority of Christian theologians did not believe in biblical inerrancy. It wasn't until I began to lose my respect for god and the bible was kicked off of the pedestal of unquestionable authority that I was finally able to look at it rationally. The bible makes a lot more sense when you realize its nothing more than the ramblings of a bunch of superstitious ancients.

lpetrich · 10-18-2002, 10:31 PM

Which suggests a very fun sort of experiment:

Collect Jesus Christ's teachings, and present them in some disguised form.

How people react should be fun to watch. Especially over teachings like loving one's enemies or removing body parts that lead one astray.

Ronin · 10-19-2002, 03:08 AM

You may find this of interest ~

<a href="http://www.landoverbaptist.org/quizlist.html" target="_blank">Bible Quiz For True (tm) Bible Readers</a>

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]</p>

cheetah · 10-20-2002, 03:59 PM

I think a more key question is: Of those who read the bible, how many have read all of it? It seems to me that churches and bible studies encourage reading of only key phrases and verses, and discourage reading or analysis of certain others...

gsx1138 · 10-20-2002, 04:38 PM

Reading two different versions of the Bible actually helped me not believe in any of the stories. I would say that less than 30% of those that identify themselves as christians have actually read the Bible.

Kim o' the Concrete Jungle · 10-20-2002, 04:55 PM

I find it kind of sad, really, that Christians got so caught up on the whole inerrancy thing. It means that modern Christians have inherited this worthless heap of junk, and they have no alternative but to try and defend the indefensible.

If they hadn't broken their third commandment and started worshipping a book (just think about printing for a moment -- its obvious that a printed page is a graven image), then they might have seen Bible stories for what they were. They weren't meant to be absolutely accurate accounts of real events, they were meant to be stories that conveyed moral sensibilities.

If Christians hadn't been so anal about it, that core of stories could have formed the backbone of a western literary tradition. They could have been told and retold by the best writers down through the centuries, and the moral messages conveyed could have kept pace with the moral development of the western world. The Christian "tradition" could have been a living tradition, rather than the crude, dead, stinking thing that their "perfectly preserved" bible is. You can almost smell the formalin when you crack the spine.

As it is, Christians expect us to "believe" in a God who is totally unbelievable, who they've created out of necessity to support an equally indefensible Christian mindset, full of moral absolutes and ejaculatory revelationism. Christianity could have been synonymous with and indestinguishable from western society. Instead, it's become some errant thing too insane and dysfunctional for me to even wrap my head around, much less believe in.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kim o' the Concrete Jungle ]

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kim o' the Concrete Jungle ]</p>

cydonia · 10-20-2002, 06:42 PM

Well what the heck are they doing in bible study?

My family is fundy, i'm assuming they have read the entire bible. And i know what that means. If your whole life is based on one book, i would think over a lifetime you would read the whole thing.

Also, think of years of church going, even if you didn't read it yourself wouldn't you have had the whole thing read out loud by the preacher?

I don't doubt that many christians haven't read the bible, it just doesn't make sense that they would be christian and not read their manifesto.

LOL! I'm loving the first quiz at landover baptist. They are making me feel very stupid.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ]</p>

B. H. Manners · 10-20-2002, 08:12 PM

It has been my experience that VERY few Christians actually read the Bible. Often times I get into discussions with them and they often do not know the most basic of Bible stories.

Someone said above that ministers have commented affirmatively that believers do not read the Bible and lament it. To be honest, I am not sure the pastors want their congregations to read the Bible more than they are already.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

Opera Nut · 10-20-2002, 09:56 PM

I had a fundy tell me he didn't think I knew much about the Bible.

In college, the religion dept was full of PH.D.'s from Princeton and Harvard, and the religion courses were very difficult and lots of fun -- really a branch of the philosophy department. We used the New English Bible, now called the Revised English Bible.

I took "Nature and function of religion" and "Old Testament" from a guy who is a fabulous linguist. Can read aramaic, amharic, hebrew, greek, latin, Akkadian, Linear B, bla bla......

In OT class we learned about the different sections written at different times, like J,E,D,P, pre-exile, post exile, etc. history of the Jews. And it was very interesting, and a fairly difficult course. No theology involved.
I've been to this fundie's house and I have not seen ONE SINGLE BOOK in the entire house, not a single bookshelf. To me this is incomprehensible. I know he couldn't pass the final exam!!

cydonia · 10-21-2002, 05:41 AM

Well you're supposed to read the bible with your heart. Ask god to guide you, and he will teach you bible truths.
We're just skeptical, our spirtis aren't open enough to God to really understand biblical truths.

You can read the bible in fancy schools with fancy scholars, but that's nothing compared to reading a few verses hand in hand with the LORD guiding you through his Word, in Jesus name, amen (or something like that.

)

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10-18-2002, 06:25 AM	#11
Dargo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 713	I read the entire old testament at least twice and the new testament many times when I was a Christian. I would notice errors, absurdities, and contradictions, but my mind just glossed over them. I assumed they were either trivial or that somehow the mistake was in my comprehension rather than the "good" book itself. I even read Asimov's commentary on the Bible, and although it bothered me I was too blinded by faith to really grasp what he was saying. I just blindly assumed that the preachers were telling me the truth. To make matters worse, I knew that the majority of Christian theologians did not believe in biblical inerrancy. It wasn't until I began to lose my respect for god and the bible was kicked off of the pedestal of unquestionable authority that I was finally able to look at it rationally. The bible makes a lot more sense when you realize its nothing more than the ramblings of a bunch of superstitious ancients.

10-18-2002, 10:31 PM	#12
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Which suggests a very fun sort of experiment: Collect Jesus Christ's teachings, and present them in some disguised form. How people react should be fun to watch. Especially over teachings like loving one's enemies or removing body parts that lead one astray.

10-19-2002, 03:08 AM	#13
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	You may find this of interest ~ <a href="http://www.landoverbaptist.org/quizlist.html" target="_blank">Bible Quiz For True (tm) Bible Readers</a> [ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]</p>

10-20-2002, 03:59 PM	#14
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	I think a more key question is: Of those who read the bible, how many have read all of it? It seems to me that churches and bible studies encourage reading of only key phrases and verses, and discourage reading or analysis of certain others...

10-20-2002, 04:38 PM	#15
gsx1138 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Bremerton, Washington Posts: 379	Reading two different versions of the Bible actually helped me not believe in any of the stories. I would say that less than 30% of those that identify themselves as christians have actually read the Bible.

10-20-2002, 04:55 PM	#16
Kim o' the Concrete Jungle Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 475	I find it kind of sad, really, that Christians got so caught up on the whole inerrancy thing. It means that modern Christians have inherited this worthless heap of junk, and they have no alternative but to try and defend the indefensible. If they hadn't broken their third commandment and started worshipping a book (just think about printing for a moment -- its obvious that a printed page is a graven image), then they might have seen Bible stories for what they were. They weren't meant to be absolutely accurate accounts of real events, they were meant to be stories that conveyed moral sensibilities. If Christians hadn't been so anal about it, that core of stories could have formed the backbone of a western literary tradition. They could have been told and retold by the best writers down through the centuries, and the moral messages conveyed could have kept pace with the moral development of the western world. The Christian "tradition" could have been a living tradition, rather than the crude, dead, stinking thing that their "perfectly preserved" bible is. You can almost smell the formalin when you crack the spine. As it is, Christians expect us to "believe" in a God who is totally unbelievable, who they've created out of necessity to support an equally indefensible Christian mindset, full of moral absolutes and ejaculatory revelationism. Christianity could have been synonymous with and indestinguishable from western society. Instead, it's become some errant thing too insane and dysfunctional for me to even wrap my head around, much less believe in. [ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kim o' the Concrete Jungle ] [ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kim o' the Concrete Jungle ]</p>

10-20-2002, 06:42 PM	#17
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Well what the heck are they doing in bible study? My family is fundy, i'm assuming they have read the entire bible. And i know what that means. If your whole life is based on one book, i would think over a lifetime you would read the whole thing. Also, think of years of church going, even if you didn't read it yourself wouldn't you have had the whole thing read out loud by the preacher? I don't doubt that many christians haven't read the bible, it just doesn't make sense that they would be christian and not read their manifesto. LOL! I'm loving the first quiz at landover baptist. They are making me feel very stupid. [ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ]</p>

10-20-2002, 08:12 PM	#18
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	It has been my experience that VERY few Christians actually read the Bible. Often times I get into discussions with them and they often do not know the most basic of Bible stories. Someone said above that ministers have commented affirmatively that believers do not read the Bible and lament it. To be honest, I am not sure the pastors want their congregations to read the Bible more than they are already. [ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

10-20-2002, 09:56 PM	#19
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	I had a fundy tell me he didn't think I knew much about the Bible. In college, the religion dept was full of PH.D.'s from Princeton and Harvard, and the religion courses were very difficult and lots of fun -- really a branch of the philosophy department. We used the New English Bible, now called the Revised English Bible. I took "Nature and function of religion" and "Old Testament" from a guy who is a fabulous linguist. Can read aramaic, amharic, hebrew, greek, latin, Akkadian, Linear B, bla bla...... In OT class we learned about the different sections written at different times, like J,E,D,P, pre-exile, post exile, etc. history of the Jews. And it was very interesting, and a fairly difficult course. No theology involved. I've been to this fundie's house and I have not seen ONE SINGLE BOOK in the entire house, not a single bookshelf. To me this is incomprehensible. I know he couldn't pass the final exam!!

10-21-2002, 05:41 AM	#20
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Well you're supposed to read the bible with your heart. Ask god to guide you, and he will teach you bible truths. We're just skeptical, our spirtis aren't open enough to God to really understand biblical truths. You can read the bible in fancy schools with fancy scholars, but that's nothing compared to reading a few verses hand in hand with the LORD guiding you through his Word, in Jesus name, amen (or something like that. )

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