Freethought & Rationalism Archive

thebeave · 12-29-2002, 04:48 PM

There was a poll recently (can't remember where I saw it published though) which asked about people's views on the origin of life here on Earth. A significant portion stated that they believe in "Evolution, guided by God". In some ways, I can see people believing that because it is a comfortable middle ground. It allows them to maintain their belief in God, but at the same time, doesn't reject the findings of science. However, I am having trouble trying to get my arms around what this really means. Are they saying that, for the most part, evolution continues on its own path unaided most of the time, but that occasionally God will intervene to change course?

Like, maybe God had this idea to create homo sapiens 4 billion years ago, and has been altering the course ever since to get to where we are today? Did God purposely send in an asteroid 65 million years ago because the dinosaurs were in command, and God wanted mammals to dominate instead? Or maybe the asteroid was not God's doing... it was a random event in the Earth's history and he had to work around it?

Or does God guide things by somehow instantly altering the genetic makeup of specific animals so that they will immediately appear and function differently?

Or does God create environmental stresses (ice ages and such) as a way to guide the evolutionary process?

Or maybe he occasionally throws in a new type of pathogenic bacteria to produce specific changes, or to kill species as necessary?

If there is anyone here who believes in "Evolution, guided by God" I would appreciate hearing your thoughts and beliefs. Or if others don't believe but are familiar with this concept, I would love to hear what you have to say. I'nm confused.

Jayjay · 12-29-2002, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebeave
Like, maybe God had this idea to create homo sapiens 4 billion years ago, and has been altering the course ever since to get to where we are today? Did God purposely send in an asteroid 65 million years ago because the dinosaurs were in command, and God wanted mammals to dominate instead? Or maybe the asteroid was not God's doing... it was a random event in the Earth's history and he had to work around it?

I recall reading a science fiction short story where a man dies and goes to heaven, only to find out that God is actually a lizard (but otherwise just like the regular Judeo-Christian deity). You see, he was off to a good start with the dinosaurs, but the asteroid impact really messed up God's original plan, so he had to settle for a bunch of hairless monkeys instead...

Abacus · 12-29-2002, 05:43 PM

What would evolution guided by God be called? Evolution by Divine Selection?

I'm leaning towards large scale catastrophes (asteroids, global floods, plagues, etc.) as God's chosen method to guide evolution. Wholesale slaughter baby! It seems like his style.

Tom Sawyer · 12-31-2002, 07:48 AM

I think it's a promising step in the right direction.

Most people are not going to abandon their faith in God. It gives direction and purpose to their lives and is very important to them. Even though it isn't based on anything, it makes them feel good and most everyone is going to stick to it.

That being said, if people are willing to accept the findings of science over mythological dogma, even if they do so by make unwarranted connections between the two, it shows that they're moving in the right direction. At this rate, in a few hundred years we may be over this whole God thing entirely (and thanks to the good work of the Raelians, we'll all be around to see it).

Accepting guided evolution over Biblical creationist accounts is a small step, but it gets people going where they need to be headed.

Baloo · 12-31-2002, 08:48 AM

The next logical question to ask "theistic evolutionists" is whether they believe their God is capable of creating a universe in which mankind could have evolved without any extra meddling on His part... If they say "well, gee, I guess", then naturally you can ask how they know this isn't just such a universe.

thebeave · 12-31-2002, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peteyh
I think it's a promising step in the right direction.

Most people are not going to abandon their faith in God. It gives direction and purpose to their lives and is very important to them. Even though it isn't based on anything, it makes them feel good and most everyone is going to stick to it.

That being said, if people are willing to accept the findings of science over mythological dogma, even if they do so by make unwarranted connections between the two, it shows that they're moving in the right direction. At this rate, in a few hundred years we may be over this whole God thing entirely (and thanks to the good work of the Raelians, we'll all be around to see it).

Accepting guided evolution over Biblical creationist accounts is a small step, but it gets people going where they need to be headed.

I agree, its definitely much better than taking a literal view of Genesis or some other creation myth. I guess my point in bringing it up is that it seems people don't think about this belief, other than just a superficial one sentence feel-good statement. And if I recall from the poll I mentioned earlier, this was either the number one or number two belief on the origin and diversity of life. Could our society really be that devoid of intellectual curiousity? [Yeah, yeah, I know, does a bear shit in the woods, blah, blah, blah...]

jj · 12-31-2002, 10:42 AM

It's very simple, really, the premise has to be that "god set it all up so that it happened this way".

It's not falsifiable, it's not testable, it's not reproducable, but at least it's not at odds with human knowledge, either.

If someone wants to be a tautological creationist, I guess I don't mind, as long as they don't object to our trying to figure out how and what "happened the way it did". I can imagine the right (or is it wrong) person objection to paleontology, etc, on the basis that we're trying to build a new tower of Babylon.

Some people appear to simply be against the acquisition of knowledge.

wildernesse · 12-31-2002, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baloo
The next logical question to ask "theistic evolutionists" is whether they believe their God is capable of creating a universe in which mankind could have evolved without any extra meddling on His part... If they say "well, gee, I guess", then naturally you can ask how they know this isn't just such a universe.

I'm a theistic evolutionist and I think that God is capable of creating a universe that you have described, and, yes, there is an excellent chance that this is a universe where we just evolved all on our lonesome.

How do I think God guided evolution? I don't know, and haven't thought a lot about it. Why haven't I? Well, it's pretty much impossible to know, isn't it? My brand of guidance is kind of hands off until he got some kind of sentient animal and then gave them a soul. Could I be wrong--yes, seeing as I can't really define "soul".

--tibac

seesaw · 12-31-2002, 10:30 PM

Quote:

How do I think God guided evolution? I don't know, and haven't thought a lot about it. Why haven't I? Well, it's pretty much impossible to know, isn't it? My brand of guidance is kind of hands off until he got some kind of sentient animal and then gave them a soul. Could I be wrong--yes, seeing as I can't really define "soul".

I agree, if there is a god I don't think you could understand how a god would use evolution you would have to know the mind of god which would be impossible either way.

Tom Sawyer · 01-01-2003, 07:03 AM

seesaw,

Quote:

I agree, if there is a god I don't think you could understand how a god would use evolution you would have to know the mind of god which would be impossible either way.

Don't you think that's a bit of an intellectual cop-out? If there is a God, he's given us minds and the ability to figure out how this universe he's created is set up. At what point does it become impossible for us to understand his work?

It used to be that it was impossible for us to understand any more than what we could see with our own eyes. Then we developed communications techniques and technology to allow us to understand things that we cannot see and demonstrate through reproducable methods that those things exist. We have gotten better and better at this over the centuries and each time we find more things that were once attributed to God to be due to totally natural processes without any involvement by Him. Where is it that you think we'll hit a barrier in this advancement, beyond which it is impossible for us to understand what God has done and why can we not advance beyond that point?

Also, do you believe that we have souls? Do chimps have souls? Do iguanas have souls? If not, at what point did we get ours and why? If so, do you reconcile this with the beliefs of most major religions that humans are somehow "special" in nature?

12-29-2002, 04:48 PM	#1
thebeave Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Silicon Valley, CA Posts: 4,183	Evolution guided by God? How does it work? There was a poll recently (can't remember where I saw it published though) which asked about people's views on the origin of life here on Earth. A significant portion stated that they believe in "Evolution, guided by God". In some ways, I can see people believing that because it is a comfortable middle ground. It allows them to maintain their belief in God, but at the same time, doesn't reject the findings of science. However, I am having trouble trying to get my arms around what this really means. Are they saying that, for the most part, evolution continues on its own path unaided most of the time, but that occasionally God will intervene to change course? Like, maybe God had this idea to create homo sapiens 4 billion years ago, and has been altering the course ever since to get to where we are today? Did God purposely send in an asteroid 65 million years ago because the dinosaurs were in command, and God wanted mammals to dominate instead? Or maybe the asteroid was not God's doing... it was a random event in the Earth's history and he had to work around it? Or does God guide things by somehow instantly altering the genetic makeup of specific animals so that they will immediately appear and function differently? Or does God create environmental stresses (ice ages and such) as a way to guide the evolutionary process? Or maybe he occasionally throws in a new type of pathogenic bacteria to produce specific changes, or to kill species as necessary? If there is anyone here who believes in "Evolution, guided by God" I would appreciate hearing your thoughts and beliefs. Or if others don't believe but are familiar with this concept, I would love to hear what you have to say. I'nm confused.

12-29-2002, 05:43 PM	#3
Abacus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 2,214	That's an interesting question. What would evolution guided by God be called? Evolution by Divine Selection? I'm leaning towards large scale catastrophes (asteroids, global floods, plagues, etc.) as God's chosen method to guide evolution. Wholesale slaughter baby! It seems like his style.

12-31-2002, 08:48 AM	#5
Baloo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 417	A poll I'd be interested in The next logical question to ask "theistic evolutionists" is whether they believe their God is capable of creating a universe in which mankind could have evolved without any extra meddling on His part... If they say "well, gee, I guess", then naturally you can ask how they know this isn't just such a universe.

12-31-2002, 10:42 AM	#7
jj Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Redmond, Wa Posts: 937	I call it "tautological creationism" It's very simple, really, the premise has to be that "god set it all up so that it happened this way". It's not falsifiable, it's not testable, it's not reproducable, but at least it's not at odds with human knowledge, either. If someone wants to be a tautological creationist, I guess I don't mind, as long as they don't object to our trying to figure out how and what "happened the way it did". I can imagine the right (or is it wrong) person objection to paleontology, etc, on the basis that we're trying to build a new tower of Babylon. Some people appear to simply be against the acquisition of knowledge.

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12-31-2002, 07:48 AM	#4
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	I think it's a promising step in the right direction. Most people are not going to abandon their faith in God. It gives direction and purpose to their lives and is very important to them. Even though it isn't based on anything, it makes them feel good and most everyone is going to stick to it. That being said, if people are willing to accept the findings of science over mythological dogma, even if they do so by make unwarranted connections between the two, it shows that they're moving in the right direction. At this rate, in a few hundred years we may be over this whole God thing entirely (and thanks to the good work of the Raelians, we'll all be around to see it). Accepting guided evolution over Biblical creationist accounts is a small step, but it gets people going where they need to be headed.

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